Land of the free

Following on from the previous topic, I saw this on imgur today:

admin: That image has existed for awhile.
The people who made it don't know the definition of freedom.
Did nobody listen to John Locke? You can't take freedom, only liberty.

Blackflag: The author of the book, Fred McMahon, said: "Our intention is to measure the degree to which people are free to enjoy classic civil liberties-freedom of speech, religion, individual economic choice, and association and assembly-in each country surveyed."
It seems like an accurate definition of freedom to me.

Blackflag: What does liberty even mean?

admin: Merriam Webster Online Dictionary defines freedom as, "the state or condition of people who are able to act and speak freely, the power to do or choose what you want to, a political right" etc.

admin: A liberty is a granted ease of access,e.g, the liberty to smoke hash.
Freedom, is the ability to act on unconstrained will, IE, if you have the will to do something, then you are free to.

For example, one is free to murder someone, but they are not at liberty.
New Zealand can't be the most free country, because that implies freedom can be given and taken.
A better title would be "The country with the most liberty".

Yes, I know I'm being politically correct

sea_shell: That wouldn't be a correct definition. Rebekah's Merriam definition is correct, but the Oxford collegate clarifies it best.

Blackflag: Freedom and Constraint are antonyms. We were the first country to give women freedom to vote, one of the first countries to allow the freedom to marry someone of the same gender. They were no longer constrained. To limit such an abstract word and to not take on board the research of a man with a bio like Fred McMahon is fairly insular.

Pinkie: I meant Justice. -_- Sorry typo.

Blackflag: What you're calling "freedom" here, I would call "power". I have the power to kill somebody, but I am not free to.

Either way, it can be given and taken. To remove somebody's power to kill, lock them up in a jail cell where they are physically unable to kill anything. Given America's prison population, I'd say you're country is kinda unfree in any sense of the term.

admin: Ka tautoko ahau to whakaaro.

admin: Once again, this is false to the core definition. Power has nothing to do with abillity. I don't know where you're getting that from.
Freedom IS the ability to act on will. There isn't arguing to the contrary. A definition isn't debatable. Liberty is the state of being free from restrictions imposed by the government. That is the correct term for what New Zealand should be ranked.

Here are some articles that point out the common misconceptions between liberty and freedom.
Note: People in the 18th century didn't confuse the two.
http://the-penultimate-word.com/2011/05/30/liberty-or-freedom-the-difference-is-amazing/
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/politics/difference-between-liberty-and-freedom/
http://www.millennialstar.org/the-difference-between-freedom-and-liberty/

Debating definitions is a fools errand. I've heard to many people confuse these two words as synonymous.

sea_shell: Another misuse of the word. You were the first country to given women the liberty to vote.
Freedom can't be taken or given. Which is why I'll refer you to Thomas Paine and John Locke.
While most people wouldn't bat an eye if you interchange the two, it is politically incorrect.

Side Note: Power is also an incorrect word. Even though many people use it as a modal verb, you actually can't in proper english.

Actually Sea Shell, Wyoming was the first government to give citizens the abillity to vote.
It is actually somewhat of a controversy. Most of the states allowed womens suffrage by 1980.

Blackflag: *in 1967

Blackflag: *bleh, 1897

Blackflag: *double bleh, in 1867

I might as well just restart....
The Wyoming territory was the first government to give women's suffrage in 1869.
It entered the union as the first state with womens suffrage in 1890.
The women's suffrage movement lost traction in the wake of black rights in the early 1900's.
The first women suffrage organizations sprung up as early as 1812.

Blackflag: Last I checked, Wyoming wasn't a country. But still, good job Wyoming. While we're googling things, even in 1920 the indigenous women in the US of A couldn't vote. Shocker.