Denying Oneself - by Robert E Lee

Blackflag: I'm actually suprised anyone though what I said was that controversial. I think somewhere along the line my war ethics theory got confused with nazi apologetics

That is entirely probable when you refuse to spell out a thesis statement or a conclusion. Hence repeatedly asking you to clarify your position and make a valid point. Shoulder shrug.

And yes Stag, when you blame the Jews for their own holocaust, the Nazi's had good intentions you see, you are saying something incredible controversial and highly offensive to many people. That is not a war ethics theory, it is Nazi apologetics.

gree0232: And yes Stag, when you blame the Jews for their own holocaust, the Nazi's had good intentions you see, you are saying something incredible controversial and highly offensive to many people. That is not a war ethics theory, it is Nazi apologetics.
Whatever you want to call it., it is still correct in my eyes.

Blackflag: Then Nazi Apologetics is correct in your eyes and we can agree to strongly disagree with one another.

Discussions are not about 'you'. They are about making and supporting positions, you dumped out Nazi Apologetics and have singularly failed to explain or support the position ... while denying it's Nazi apologetics. The intent is supposed to be to TRY and support a position. Not just say ... statement ... and I am right!!!!!

The case is not just weak, its non-existent. And ultimately irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

gree0232: ... while denying it's Nazi apologetics. The intent is supposed to be to TRY and support a position. Not just say ... statement ... and I am right!!!!!
Well if I were debating you I would feel it necessary to refute what you were saying.
I'm absolutely certain that I am no Nazi apologist, but until you look at what I am saying with an open mind, that is what you will choose to believe.

Like admin said. It can be hard to believe people have radically different views than your own, but that is not a source to derive anger. I think your attempts at telling me how to debate are an act of frustration.

Blackflag: I'm absolutely certain that I am no Nazi apologist,

And yet you just claimed repeatedly that the Nazi's had good intentions, which included an illegal invasion that killed millions, and the murder or the Jews - which was their own fault and responsibility, all while singularly failing to explain the 'logic' behind such an atrociously inappropriate statement.

That is not a radically different view, its Nazi Apologetics. Hate speech. And yes, I freely admit that Hate speech is hard to swallow. In fact, its the against the forum rules on just about every site I have ever participated in. The few sites that have allowed hate speech in the name of tolerance have generally come to regret it (something I am sure you vastly superior debate experience supports mind you) as the holder of hate speech generally have no logical reason to support the position, quickly exposed, ad are reduced to attacking other people in short order.

You know, like claiming the problem here is that your words are not understood by us poor stupid people, rather than them being perfectly understood and utterly and totally unsupported by the person who launched them. Shocking, eh?

So please, in the name of DISCUSSION, enlighten all us poor stupid people about how the Jews are responsible for the Holocaust and the Nazi's have good intentions. Let me get my popcorn first though, as I am sure this will be as entertaining as any tap dancing ever witnessed in the annuls of human history.

We now have your thesis - the Jews caused their own deaths, downright responsible for it - MORONS!

Support? ....

gree0232: And yet you just claimed repeatedly that the Nazi's had good intentions, which included an illegal invasion that killed millions, and the murder or the Jews - which was their own fault and responsibility, all while singularly failing to explain the 'logic' behind such an atrociously inappropriate statement.
I do indeed. Two caveats...

Good intentions are not always morally justified intentions. The Nazis had good intentions for humanity and the future of Europe. Their vision and what they fought for is far fetched from the realities of what took place. So yes, the Nazis had good intentions. Their ideas of "good" simply were different from what we consider good.

Also, for the fourth of so time, the Jews are partially responcible for their own deaths, and are partially at fault. Nazis and Jews are just examples. The main idea is that everyone is responsible for what happens to them.

Hate speech
Seriously? Against whom?

Blackflag: And yet you just claimed repeatedly that the Nazi's had good intentions, which included an illegal invasion that killed millions, and the murder or the Jews - which was their own fault and responsibility, all while singularly failing to explain the 'logic' behind such an atrociously inappropriate statement.

I do indeed. Two caveats...

Good intentions are not always morally justified intentions. The Nazis had good intentions for humanity and the future of Europe. Their vision and what they fought for is far fetched from the realities of what took place. So yes, the Nazis had good intentions. Their ideas of "good" simply were different from what we consider good.

Also, for the fourth of so time, the Jews are partially responcible for their own deaths, and are partially at fault. Nazis and Jews are just examples. The main idea is that everyone is responsible for what happens to them.

Hate speech

Seriously? Against whom?

Congrats you managed to state your thesis ...

the Jews are partially responcible for their own deaths

And completely failed to support it. By all means, lets see if you can find an academic work that makes this statement ... shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust#Reflections_on_motivation_and_the_issue_of_responsibility

It would seem at first glance that no respected scholar would dare to utter that position.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/neonazism.html

Neo-Nazi's do ... to the point where the Jewish people feel compelled to document it. Do you understand how it just MIGHT be viewed as hate speech rather than an ... ahem ... academic position?

Please, explain to us how the Jews are responsible for the Nazi's ghettoizing them, working them to death, shooting them to death, and finally gassing them to death ... How is this their fault?

And no, simple logic implodes your position. If a man is walking and a pain falls on him ... he is not responsible for his death - the engineer that incorrectly hooked up the piano is. The JEWS WERE MURDERED - and the murderer's are responsible for their deaths.

What you are doing is Apologetics for Nazi's. Don't worry sociopaths we specifically hired to murder innocent people ... its mostly their fault that they are here!

And the real ringer? WTH does this have to do with whether or not violence is acceptable? Apparently, is so acceptable that you can murder someone ... because your victim is actually responsible for his own death too ...

Personal responsibility is a good thing - its the therefore we are somehow in control of everything that happens to us and thus responsible ... even for our own murder ... that is illogical and untenable.

It adds nothing to the comparison of the Just War Doctrine to Pacifism.