I was fascinated with Islam. I would have been a Muslim today if I had not found Jehovah's Christianity. Would you not agree that to find the truth one must reason, compare and question? MANY Muslims learn by rote, taught by parents, They do not investigate other religions thoroughly because they believe that the Quran teaches about those religions. This is not a fair way to judge. Would you rather hear about John's beliefs from John's enemy or from John himself? From studying both religions here are my thoughts:
Islam supports the idea that the Bible is the original and first book from God, however they all books except the TORAH has been corrupted
1) I reason that since the Bible claims to be the word of God and it iss originally so if God wanted his people to have a new book it would have been prophecied in the Bible. It is a modest and organized way of moving forward. Fear of God leads Christian people to start with the original word of God and see where it leads them. I know very well that some muslims (namely Ahmed Deedat) claim that there is a "reference" to Mohammed in the Bible in one "verse" somewhere in the Gospels, in the verse "spirit" is spoken about, however ask any Mulsim and they tell me "you can not read a single ayat (verse) and expect to properly understand it, you need also to see the bigger picture." So then why be hypocritical? Firstly If you were to read the chapter in the Gospels an hoenst person can clearly see the reference is to the holy spirit.
2)Now what is this corruption Islam/Muslims speak of in the Bible or in other words what do Muslims disagree with? Let me address "Seperation of Jesus from Jehovah God, one God, Jesus not being son of God."Jehovah's Witnesses believe that there is one God.
THE BIBLE PROPHECIED CORRUPTION DUE TO SATAN BUT ALSO THAT TRUTH WOULD BE RESTORED WITH A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME...but this corruption NOT OF THE WORD OF GOD...but of THE PEOPLE
Paganism and pagans converting to Christianity has influenced celebrations and belif in the Trinty however it IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE BIBLE.
The Bible should not contradict itself and it does not. An HONEST PERSON will acknowledge the use of Literary devices in the Bible, methaphors and poetry.
Jesus is not God.... Why he is called "son of God"So Christians etc (who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses) would prefer I use King James Version, so here is proof from your own Bible:
Colossians 1:15 (speaking about Jesus being firstborn of all creation....) compared with Psalm 90:2 (God has no beginning, he has always lived and always will live)
Also John 14: 28 (the father is greater than I am, therefore not equal)
Also1 Corinthians 8: 6 very specifically states that "there is only one God, God the father (creator of heaven and earth, Jehovah, God almighty)”
(KJV) Psalm 83: 18 “That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.”
3) THE TERM SON OF GOD:
Did you know the Bible refers to evil men as offspring or sons of (EYE-BLEES) iblis in the bible book called Acts 13:10 and said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the Devil, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah?and obedient men as sons of God in the bible book called Romans 8:19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God? Infact a viper is a venemous or poisonous sssnak e and the bible in the book called Matthew 12:34 refers to wicked men as offspring or in other words children of vipers the scripture says "Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.So the Bible was written using metaphoric writing style so son of god son of snake do u really think the bible means a man can physically be produced by a snake? That is impossible so a reasonable person can understand the language.
Did you know the Bible spoke about so many non literal sons ? No Jesus is not the only one referred to as son of God....So when I tell you that if a young boy is obedient to and lives his life just as a teach of his did then in a non- literal and non-physical sense some might call the boy the teacher's son. You think we give Jesus too high of a position by calling him son ofGod but fun fact did you know the Bible speaks non literally about obedients humans as sons yes plural many sons of God so therfore the Bible doesn't singled out Jesus as a special son of God no no instead the bible calls evil men the sons of Satan the Devil sons of (Eye-blees) Iblis and obedient men as sons of God...the reason that Jesus is most admired as a sonof God is because he was a perfect example, the best example that walked the earth.'
Would you deny that the word father and creator are synonyms? Would you deny that father's sometimes disown their sons, so if you are disobedient and you are gay your father will disown you, he might no longer consider you his son. In a similar way the relationship of God and his creations are described,
4) JESUS BROUGHT PEACE AND SCOLDED HIS DISCIPLES FOR VIOLENCE....it is not reasonable to say that God would send someone after Jesus to bring about confusion with consequences of violence. Islam's has a history of wars. Jehovah's Witnesses arrose peacefully, to restore truth.
Instead Mohammed can be likened to Hananaiah the prophet…are Muslims aware of his story? He was a false prophet who God took his life after he told Jerusalem God spoke to him and said to them a false message. I really can't understand why he did it but who are humans to judge? Hananaiah and Mohammed who maybe genuinely was trying to do something good may be in paradise...the world is strange and we don't have the answer to all questions but one must study the Bible and not act presumptiously.
Sometimes we think we are right and our conscience says it is okay...if you do not train your conscience by reading God's word to know what God think is okay then sure you will go about doing things you think is right and not necessarily mean God thinks it is right. Presumptiousness is dangerous.
Mohammed's intentions may have been good...I can't read hearts and minds and neither can you...but not with the approval of God....what became of it..oh that is right when Mohamed died the caliphate caused a division...is it the Sunni way or the Shi'ite/shiah way?...Look at what happened to Ali...What happened to Ali? During his rule as the fourth caliph (656-661 C.E.), a struggle over leadership arose between him and the governor of Syria, Muʽāwiyah. They joined battle, and then to spare further Muslim bloodshed, they threw their disagreement open to arbitration or negotiation. ʽAlī’s acceptance of arbitration weakened his case and alienated or distanced many of his followers, including the Khawārij (Seceders), who became his deadly foes or enemies. In the year 661 C.E., ʽAlī was murdered with a poisoned sabre by a Khārijī enthusiasts whono longer followed him.
For the Shīʽah, ʽAlī’s firstborn, Ḥasan, the prophet’s grandson, was the true successor. However, he resigned and was murdered. His brother Ḥusayn became the new imām, but he too was killed, by Umayyad troops whose leader was uthman ibn affan
Yes there a brilliant Muslims and ones who can understand the Quran......they are many uneducated about their own religion...they aren't United as a BROTHERHOOD..the Quran causes confusion among many of them...causing violence and other questionable acts...there isn't a standard belief...truly I say to you if Muslims in the middle east met the Muslims in my country they would not recognise each....there is DIVISION in islam, main standards differ as to what is halal and haram, topics like makeup, hijab, killing....SURELY the Quran can not cause a man to kill, I REPEAT THE QURAN CAN NOT CAUSE A MAN TO KILL (for we have free will) but the very fact that many times men have killed ,misunderstood the Quran shows that Allah does not educated his people as a classroom and Muslims aren't United in a brotherhood.
4) b) Muslims are not disciplied. So the Quran can not directly cause someone to kill but I explained my point above...SO WHAT IS BEIGN DONE TO STOP THIS? WHERE IS THE DISCIPLINE, WHY AREN'T THEY SPEAKING ABOUT IT?.....THERE IS NOTHING IN PLACE TO PROTECT THE NAME OF ALLAH...when u hear bout honour killing, wife beating, child marraiges, men just doing what they want with or to women and thinking they have no rights, wanting respect but not giving it, people who claim to be Muslim but are fake Muslims they break the biggest rules of Islam like killing and violence...wanting to go to school etc but not being allowed to (Malala for example who was shot).. the majority of people who join Islam in simple things as to wearing tight clothes, arguments for not wearing hijab ...people aren't educated about their own religion and what does this do? You ask people and they say Islam encourages terrorism and bombings and women abuse...They do not protect the name of Allah ....Compared to my religion we no longer accept persons who commit serious sins and dont want to change as members, they are DISFELLOWSHIPPED and their privilleges are removed, why because the our father prayer said let Gods name be sanctified, by removing uncnhanging serious sinners from our religion persons cant say that our religon ACCEPTS or our God encourages these bad things...scripture says CLEAN OUT THE LEAVEN. my religion has freedom of personality but there are certain no nos that all witness are educated about the true God would ensure his people are educated, the fruits being produced by the so called muslim in Islam show that they have no control over them no person in charge they are sheep without shepherds and they are not united as one people, they include practices of other religons such as being soldiers joining war and politics, supporting worldly rulershups, and the community doesn't speak against these things.
5) In keeping with Jesus, God HATES VIOLENCE. Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientious objectors when the army takes them, they are in prison for refusing to fight and pick up arms, yet we see this division in Islam because they do join the army.
6) There is NOTHING New the Quran teaches (besides that Mohammed is prophet, I already made the point that he was unmerited), so it is therefore unnecessary... When someone posts an Islamic teaching I say to myself "but this is in the Bible".
7) Fasting/ when Jesus was on earth he spoke of God's kingdom, the most important kingdom....Preaching/sharing good (gospel) news of truth is most important... in islam urgency of Dawah is not shown....what is love of neighbour if you don't try to share a life saving message with them? ...Jehovah's Witnesses Dilligently preach and we are taught the urgency of this work as commanded in Mathew 28:19 and 20Jesus the way the truth the life chapter 28, page 70.... Mathew 9:16 and 17. FASTING takes away from the more important work of preaching and inviting others...ISLAM SUPPORTS THE TORAH.....The mosaic law (found in the Torah) doesn't encourage ritualistic fasting...rather for focus and to realise Ur sin...to repent.. recognise Ur need for reconciliation.....fast purpose is atonement...not in the way the Jews did it...not to go through motions robotically as from habit. You must do things for god for the right reasons and motives.
The scripture doesn't say "come U who are refreshed and I will make U toiled and loaded down..." It says the opposite Mathew 11: 28 says "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." Acts 15:27 shows Jehovah a adds no necessary burden.
The scripture people use to say we should fast ..Mathew 9:15 Jesus is king and we aren't in mourning...he has been resurrected, so we have no need to fast.
8) This Robotism and Ritualism was discouraged in the days of the Jews...so considering that Muslims are supposed to respect the Torah.Praying the same prayer repetitively is done by Christians and Catholics and this was also discouraged. Prayer should come from the heart and is talking to God....how annoying it would be if someone was to say the same thing over and over (please do research the scripture).
9) Not sure if i mentioned this but Islam doesn't bring FREEDOM. BEing a leading religion, haveing countriees that are ran by Muslims, ISLAMIC STATES.... In countries like Islamic state if Mauritania ... learning Islam doesn't change the unfair treatment.....and divorced women are desirable ...women rights.... force feeding in Mauritania... TO MAKE IT WORSE Muslim country fighting Muslim countries or ANY country...for what? ( maybe land?). Seems they have forgotten about JANNAH... wars on the hold should be avoid ebcause GOD HATES VIOLENCE...Jehovah's Witnesses are able to avoid it.
10) HATE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY OF ISLAM.Dina Tokio, took off her Hijab...is Hijab really a choice?. The community doesn't make this hate something serious and speak about... love of each other. Bible says you CAN NOT LOVE GOD WHO YOU CAN NOT SEE IF YOU CAN'T DO THE SIMPLE TASK OF LOVING A BROTHER WHO YOU CAN SEE. In JW we believe You can not win your brother over with hate or get them to do the right thing... it's not the way of Jehovah God that Jesus taught.Watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3kIJd-_yiY
Muslim Girl (recent convert) gives one good reason persons Don't like Islam.
She speaks that the vers saying to lower the gaze comes before that of hijab.
THERE IS NO FORCE IN ISLAM YET THE COMMUNITY use abusive words agaisnt persosn who make a choice.
She got so much hat from Muslim Men, she said " I hate to say this but no wonder so many people have a bad image about Islam, look at how Muslim brothers treat their sisters...it's not Islamic...don't be suprised many people think islam oppresses women, some of you Muslim men think you are like our boss?"
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Hi and welcome to another exciting RELIGION Edeb8 – it’s been a while for me and I’m excited to see how this one goes. Thanks to the Judges for taking the time and to my opponent for the enthusiastic participation!
Since my opponent hasn’t defined the resolution, I will. It’s pretty clear this time, but let’s make sure we’re all on the same page.
PRO will be trying their best to convince us all that the Jehovah’s Witness branch of Christendom is closer to being the TRUE religion than Islam.
A definition of Jehovah’s Witness, (hence forth abbreviated to JW) can be found here. It should be noted that although JWs CLAIM to be Christians, most Christian denominations reject this claim. I don't think this point will prove to be particularly relevant to this debate, but I want to make it clear that this resolution is not a Christian vs Islam debate, rather a Jehovah's Witness vs Islam debate.
PRO has not defined a particular sect of Islam, (there are many and they are varied) so I will use this fairly universal definition of the core tenants here – and reserve the right to cherry pick individual denominations if the need arises.
(Just so that we don’t get weighed down in lengthy debates about definitions, I’d appreciate it if PRO could acknowledge at the beginning of their next round that they are happy that the two sources I’ve provided give a fair representation of the two religions. I am happy to agree with any adjustments they make, as long as they’re not too extreme!)
The critical part of the resolution is the standard we are using to evaluate these two religions.
The resolution doesn’t state that either Religion IS the TRUE religion, so neither side is under any obligation to prove that their religion is actually the true religion, only that it is closer to objective truth than the other.
My side is happy they’ve drafted the resolution this way, as proving either Religion to be objectively true would be very difficult. This is a much better way to do it.
One final point to note is that, for the purposes of this debate, it must be assumed that there IS a true Religion.
SO HOW DO WE ACTUALLY WIN THIS DEBATE?
Here’s the big obstacle with this debate. Objectively, none of us KNOW which religion is the TRUE religion. Since PRO needs to show that the JWs are closer to the true religion than the Muslims, they must first establish, objectively, which religion is the true one. Without that benchmark we will have no way of knowing which of us is closer.
As CON, my job is slightly easier. I just have to rebut any evidence PRO provides which might make Islam look completely bonkers. For a religion that has almost two BILLION followers and is one of the oldest continuously active faiths in Human history, despite centuries of persecution – I think I’ll be OK.
Not being one to rest on a straight Neg case though, I will be assuming some of the BOP in this debate and showing why, logically, it is reasonable to assume that Islam is most likely closer to the TRUE religion.
WHICH RELIGION IS MORE LIKELY TRUE: STATISTICS
Apparently there are approximately 4200 religions in the world. Assuming as we are, that ONE of these is the TRUE religion, we can compare Islam with Jehovah's Witnesses and assess the statistical probability of one being true over the other.
Judging the truth of a religion by the number of followers or the length of time it has been around is not a perfect system - BUT it is not completely irrelevant.
Before I explain the relevance, here are those numbers:
(I should explain, the fact that you can't see an orange bar for the number of JWs is not a mistake, it IS there, it's just so thin that you can't detect it with the human eye. There are 8.5 million JWs in the world. That number makes up 0.47% of the 1.8 billion Muslims. That's a ratio known as "Statistically Irrelevant")
WHY DO THE NUMBER OF FOLLOWERS MATTER?
Most people choose a religion. Even the ones that are born into one make a decision to adhere to it at some point in their lives. What we are saying is that with this sample size of fractionally over 1.8 billion people, 99.5% of them decided Islam is the true religion.
If my opponent contests that these stats could be skewed or false, I'm certainly happy to let that go without contest. Let's give these numbers a margin of error of 40%? 50%? 90%?
Either way you slice it, Islam trumps JWs every time.
If MORE people have chosen Islam it is MORE LIKELY that Islam is correct.
WHY DO THE YEARS PRACTICED MATTER?
Also bear in mind that Islam in general and Muslims in particular have survived countless attempts at destruction, especially during the Crusades.
In conclusion, Evolution is accepted as true, not because it can be PROVED, but because the majority of scientists believe it is the most likely truth. Climate Change is also accepted as true, for the same reasons.
The evidence I've provided doesn't PROVE that Islam is more true than Jehovah Witness, but it does indicate pretty strongly that the vast majority of relevant people think it is.
Although individuals from both camps may take it upon themselves, suffice it to say that neither side is particularly interested in examining other Holy texts.
That being said, if we are casting shade, despite the many different denominations, there is literally only ONE version of the Qu'ran.
There wasn't really anything else to rebut in PRO's initial round.
There are some rambling points about Jesus not being God... Islam agrees with this. No contest there.
PRO also mentioned the fact that in 1400 years, Islam has been used as an excuse for war, while JWs have a doctrine of peace. Again, no contest there. Religion IS often used for violence. It may even legitimately incite violence. (The JWs version of God does this numerous times through the Old Testament)
That might make it a less PREFERRED religion, but it doesn't make it a FALSE religion.
Along similar lines, there are things about Islam being more strict or more restrictive. Again, if we were choosing which religion we'd PREFER then that's different. I'd prefer one that prescribed endless donuts, chicken wings and beer, and a God that grants wishes like a Genie!
Unfortunately that's not the way it works.
PRO is attempting to shift the resolution to which religion is the most preferred!
Finally PRO also makes a very common point about the amount of witnessing/evangelism/recruiting Jehovah's Witnesses do. As if this somehow means that it must be true. "Look how hard we're working! Do you think we'd be doing this if we were wrong?!"
My big question is: If the message were true, why does the Evangelism not seem to be working?
To sum this thing up, My opponent hasn't done anything to show that Islam is false. It's their OPINION that it's a less desirable truth than that proposed by the Jehovah's Witness religion, but that is not enough to meet their burden of proof.
Approximately half of their first round case was spent arguing that Jesus was not God, which actually agrees with the Islamic position.
In contrast, even though I didn't NEED to prove anything to win this debate, I showed evidence that Islam has survived roughly 10 times longer than JW, and is growing faster than any other religion despite already having almost a quarter of the Human population as adherents.
Not bad for a False Religion!
Going forward, I suspect that this debate will descend into the usual paths of highlighting and arguing over semantic apparent contradictions in Holy Texts, but rest assured, this conclusion will be the same as my final one.
Vote CON! (PBUH)
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let me make it fairly simple..Numbers don't prove a religion true..islam is growing a lot through children- making shows statistic...1)Islam is widely considered as the fastest growing religion in Europe due primarily to immigration and above average birth rates.
2) Because of conditions in countries...Muslim refugees and also because of the attraction of better life in Europe and the West they migrate there in large numbers.. it's not the same case for us and it is unlikely that we go to middle Eastern countries to live.
3) Viewing it wider as Christianity (not specifying JW) compared to IslamIn modern America and Europe it's also uncommon for persons growing up in Christian/Catholic households to preach to friends and people they meet or make attempts to spread their belief...this is just part of culture... So there really shouldn't be a comparison...
4)Also Considering with Con said that JW aren't as old as Islam..JW is a young religion...it's not a fair basis for comparison....
5)numbers don't prove a religion true. If Christians were to look at the growing number of Atheists...does that number prove atheism true to them?
Bible shows small in number in good light Mathew 7:13Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate andbroad is the. way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it.
Let me correct your assumption... Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the main message of the Bible can be found in most if not all versions of Bible (majority) and we actually encourage Persons to use their own Bible on studies we conduct. We use our Bible for personal use and better understanding because it is in modern English and we find it easier to grasp this English than in the king James version which uses old EnglishFor example:Compare from the NWT that JWs with the KJV difference in language in Genesis 25:9
NWT: 29 On one occasion Jacob was boiling some stew when Eʹsau returned from the field exhausted
KJV:29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint
I literally used KJV version in my post ... Catholicism is a large religion and many people are familiar with KJV Bible is another reason.
Also in the our father prayer we pray to God "let your name be sanctified"...Psalm 83:18 says may people know you who's name is ____ you alone are the most high over all the earth ...in KJV the name can be found. It's called Jehovah...the NWT restores the name to it's rightful place as nowhere in the Bible forbids its use but rather talks about it being a stronghold. In becoming close to someone you first learn their name.
Jehovah's witnesses are infact Christian ....we obey only the Bible and you can question us on any of our beliefs and find our answer comes from the Bible.A right
To tie in with his last point I believe. While I would use that I happen to be a former Muslim...he is arguing with a fact... 1)Muslims are the ones who say themself that the Quran speaks about other religions...therefore there is no need to investigate other books...the website jw.org clearly shows JW investigate the history of Islam...Further 2) many are born Muslim, learn from their families Islam.
ACCORDING to orthodox Islam the Quran “is uncreated and eternal [and] was written from the beginning in golden rays on a magnificent tablet in heaven and was communicated to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel . . .” (1942 ed. ofEncy. Amer.,Vol. 16, under “Koran”) In the effort to place the Quran above all else and as equal with God himself, Muslim tradition has a paradox on its hands; for how could the Quran be eternal and uncreated and yet written on a magnificent tablet? Written by whom—if coeternal with God?
Statistics show that persons are wlling to change religion for the sake of worshipping together, usually the woman chnages religion, this sometimes happens in Isalm, in fact Islam is known for this,
Muslim woman usually can't marry Christian men, however Muslim men multiple times wed Christian women who sometimes convert without belief in the religion. Occurs in Europe...Unlike in JW, adhering to the principl marry only in the Lord, and to avoid complication such as lack of being able to worship with spouse (many people desire this) they find more happiness with a lifetime partner who has this in common, so they do more thigns together,, it is rare for a witness to marry a non witness.
. Also with many people not being religious in the name of keeping peace, it doesn't matter to them what religion they participate in. Family relations are important and since they don't have strong religious views they don't make a problem out of it for their families.
There are many little ways that Islam is finding itself to grow and can not be compared on a fair basis as afor mentioned.
When Con talks about survivial of destruction, the word fo God is truly a survivor, persosn were burnt at stakes, kings seeked to destroy it...and it survives.... While Islam derived fighting back and with wars behind them...JW are persecuted, jailed, killed, never fight in wars, we are peaeful and on't use force to spread our religion, way of the Christ...
The Bible is old and has a beautiful story of survival, read it here, banned and burnt, https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20091101/bible-story-of-survival/
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Thanks PRO for that last round, as expected this one might get a little technical... sorry y'all!
Are Numbers Relevant?
Just to restate myself - Statistics don't PROVE anything. It's important that the judges follow me on this. (PRO as well, but that's kind of less important)
The definitions we set in the first round state that ONE of the world's current religions IS the true religion. We don't know which one.
It could literally be any of them.
The Prince Philip Movement is a legitimate religion from Vanuatu which claims that HRH Prince Philip is the living incarnate God. In theory, they could be right. But they probably aren't.
The resolution for this debate is pretty important. We are comparing the Witnesses of Jehovah to Islam, and making a guess as to which one is closer to the true religion.
When a theory can't be PROVEN, it gets tested.
It's our side's contention that Islam has been tested MORE thoroughly by MORE people over a LONGER period of time.
As predicted, PRO contends that a high number of the 1.8 billion adherents of Islam are born or forced into it. While they've provided NO sources for this, I said last round I was happy to go with that. If we were to assume that 99% of Muslims did NOT actually believe Islam and that 100% of JWs DID believe in their religion, Islam would still have more than 200% more followers than Jehovah's Witness.
Let me put it to you this way Judges... in this debate we need to decide which of TWO options is more likely true.
Option one has 8.5 million people who will testify that it is true and is a theory which has existed for the last 140 years.
Option two has more than 21 THOUSAND TIMES MORE people who will testify that it is true, and has existed for the last 14 CENTURIES.
Are PRO's points Relevant?
PRO's burden of proof to win this debate requires that they convince us that the Jehovah's Witness interpretation is the TRUE religion.
They haven't really done anything to do this. The only thing they've mentioned which is different between JW's and Islam is that the JW's have a more preferable religion because it is less violent, which as I said in the first round, is not relevant.
I didn't think the question of whether Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians was going to be a factor in this debate, but it appears that it may be.
They even claimed in that last round that www.jw.org, (the least biased website in the world when considering JW positions! *eyeroll*) shows that they have objectively investigated Islam's claims. I actually looked on that website. It popped up quickly because it's literally the only source my opponent has used in this whole debate. I couldn't find ANY reference to support the idea that JWs are encouraged to read and study other religions.
Finally, just to really hammer home how irrelevant and unsubstantial PRO's points have been so far, please consider this:
The only Doctrinal points that PRO has brought up so far - No Trinity, One God, Jesus was just a Man - Islam and JWs agree. How can JWs be CLOSER to the true religion when both religions agree on all the points of doctrine which have brought up thus far.
Although they claim to follow many of the doctrines of mainstream Christianity, Jehovah’s Witnesses deny several of the FUNDEMENTAL points of Christianity, perhaps most critically, the deity of Christ as part of the Trinity.
If JWs are considered to be part of wider Christianity, then it goes without saying that Christians are responsible for as much slaughter, attempted genocides, and general atrocities as Muslims have been. In this case, JWs just happen to be a more peaceful subset of a Religion which is just as bloodthirsty as Islam.
In that case I will posit that Sufism, which is a super peaceful subset of Islam, is the most truthful representative of Islam in the same way that PRO is arguing JWs are the most truthful representation of Christianity.
If JWs are NOT considered to be part of wider Christianity, then, as a Religion it must be acknowledged that they are small, diminishing, and have been shown to falsely rewrite the scripture they claim is infallible to better suit their doctrines. Their religion relies on members being to afraid to speak out against the leadership for fear of being cut off from friends and family.
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Mr Pro makes a lot of assumptions as I said before. I only looked in JW a few years ago. And before that I looked into Islam.. thank you for the idea of proving my religion.
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Thanks PRO for your latest round, and, as always, to the Judges for their continued efforts!
PRO has continually asserted that Jehovah's are a subset of Christianity in exactly the same way that Sufist Muslims are a subset of Islam.
If this is the case then I am perfectly within my rights to also narrow my definition of Islam to my one favourite subset.
If PRO is willing to renounce their claim that JW's are Christians, then I'll go back to arguing Islam vs JW, using the very vague definitions of Islam we set in the first round.
But then look, straight away they do it again! When it suits them, PRO is happy to hitch the JW cart to Christianity, but as soon as it doesn't, they want to distance themselves.
Islam has killed millions in their history. So have Christians.
PRO claims that JWs are proof that TRUE Christians are peaceful. We claim that SUFIST MUSLIMS are proof that TRUE Muslims are peaceful.
Just like Christianity, Islam is made up of hundreds of different variants. Just like Christendom, some of these are subtle in their differences, but some of them are extremely different. In the first round we said:
PRO declined to contest this definition, despite being specifically asked to acknowledge it at the beginning of their second round.
So for the sake of those who didn't look up "Islam" - THIS is what Islam believes:
1. One God.
4. Angels are created beings, not gods.
WHILE WE'RE AT IT, HAS PRO PROVED THAT JWs ARE EVEN THAT DIFFERENT TO MUSLIMS YET?!
Great question Judge!
Check out the list of what Islam believes as defined in this debate.
PRO has already mentioned almost all of these as being things that JWs believe to be true. The only thing on that list that they would disagree with is that the Qur'an is divinely inspired.
Sure it's survived to the present day, but if there is so much controversy and disagreement over whether it is still an accurate representation of the original documents, has it really survived?
This is the original Qur'an. It was compiled from the literal words of the Prophet Mohammed, and was completed less than 20 years after his death.
It is still with us today, a little stained, a little worse for wear, but still readable.
In 1400 years of history, every single version of the Qur'an remains identical to this one. That feat is nothing short of miraculous. It's a claim that not even the Bible can make.
Interestingly, the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are the closest thing Christians have to the original Old Testament caused a little controversy when they finally made an appearance in 1947 - not only did they highlight several inconsistencies in the text that had been handed down throught he generations, but one of the Old Testament books was completely missing!
If you'll recall, they have the biggest burden of proof here. CON can win if you decide that Islam is likely closer to being the true religion, OR if you decide that both religions are equally wrong. PRO can only win if they can prove that the JW branch of Christendom is more likely the true religion.
So far in every round PRO has spent the majority of it proselytizing about things that they think make JWs a more preferable religion, and then rambling about doctrines that they think make JWs more true, apparently not realising that Islam shares literally ALL of those same doctrines.
Perhaps foolishly, and mostly because I was bored, I've made several arguments that I think make Islam a more likely bet to be true.
Given that NOTHING that PRO has said has convinced us one way or the other, we really don't have much to go on here.
We have to pick ONE religion to be the true one.
The picture I'm trying to paint here is that Islam is established, fit and healthy, while JWs are gasping and on their last legs.
Now, assuming God is real, how likely is it that he would let his one true religion slowly waste away into nothing?
To quote the Bible, from Psalm 37:
"Better is the little that the righteous has than the abundance of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, but the LORD upholds the righteous." - Ps 37: 16-17
In Round two I got REAL bored and posited that perhaps JWs didn't even qualify as a religion?
If you are convinced as we are, and as most of Christianity is, that Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT Christians, then what ARE they?
The secular, unbiased source that I posted last round suggests very strongly that they certainly qualify as a CULT. This spurious accusation on my part was met with absolute silence from PRO in this latest round. No denials? So they agree with us then?!
So, ask yourself, which is more likely the TRUE RELIGION - a RELIGION, or a cult?
In Round three, I proved that although their internal structures and cultures may be different, the actual core doctrines of Islam and Jehovah's Witness are stunningly identical. The major point of difference are the relative holy texts.
I then showed that the Qur'an is the very definition of Truth, unerring throughout the centuries, while the Bible in general, and the NWT specifically, is more HOLEY than HOLY. ( <-- Oh come on! That was awesome! If that point didn't win me the debate than that pun surely did!)
Ahhh, what lies in store for Round four?!
Vote CON! - You can't spell "Islam" without "I SLAM"!
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HAHAAH I am new to this website ...excuse me..
CON (I think) I am giving you A yes or no questionIs Chistianity supposed to be based on the Bible and What Christ did? Yes or no?
Name one belief JW have that is not in the Bible.
Peace...Do sufis teach their members that they must be conscientious objectors and not partake in the army and go to prison for it?
1) Nevertless my point is the Christianity is an old religion in comparison to Islam, ISLAM SAYS IT BELIEVES IN JESUS AND ACCEPTS THE TORAH...Jesus taught peace....JW restores Christ's way... Islam doesn't do that.RESTORE IS THE KEY WORD...RESTORE.
2) See exactly what is sense of a new Religon (Islam) if they are going to divide again sufism, shia, sunni, with their slight differences, I alresady mentioned that within the communites themself
Quran and Bible , teaches Jesus is a pure boy, Jesus was the only prophet born of a virgin...mentioned more times than any prophet in the Quran, so while it appears Islam is stealing from Christianity, it has vital info that indicates Jesus was an important prophet.
God can not lie he WARNED Adam and Eve that the one who ate the fruit would die, they disoberyed their father God...sin causes imperfection like a disease, imperfect humans can't make perfect children, Satan made a challange that humans are selfish and can't serve God out of love, also he lied and said God was witholding good ....Angels are onlooking from the heavens at this and making judgements themself as if to follow Satan and become a demon or God.... God says to us proverbs 27:11 be wise my son and make my heart rejoice so that i can make a reply to him who taunts me (Satan).God made provision for us to get everlasting life...not breaking his own law...so we can gain everlastign life free of sin.....
Islam says God creates us to be tested and we are not born sinners....yet why do we all get sick and die even before the age of comprehension of these tests, children are born into poverty, born to starve to die, born as orphans in the fields for vultures....and we must consider the whole world, global warming, polar bears are starving, have you seen, we are destroying the earth, that is not part of the test, these children and animals can't comprehed test, therefore there is no reasoning.
Translation is loving provison from God, to read a language in your mother tongue and to understand, perhaps it is in Arabic so people can't see for themselves the Quran nothing better than the Bible, to see that these amazing teachings have been stolen from the bible, that they do not need the Quran to hear these sayings... I haven't learnt anything new besides the few things already discussed, mainly sin..... Perhaps Mohammed is a Hananiah.
DESPITE the many bible versions I SAID THAT WE PREACH TO PEOPLE USING THEIR BIBLE ON THE SAME BASIS AS MUSLIMS REASON THAT THE QURAN MUST BE READ AS A WHOLE....THE BIBLE MUST BE STUDIED....there are better translations today cause of technological advances and knowledge..its liek saying DONT DRINK WATER CAUSE THE DIRTY ONE IS CLOSE AND THE CLEAN SOURCE IS FAR...BUT CLEAN WATEREXISTS NEVERTLESS LESS....a person who is HONEST AND PATIENT AND REALLY WANTS TRUTH will use a Bible that is said by historians and linguists to be more accurate...anyone can take the time to investigate.I'm glad u mentioned dead sea scrolls because that is one of the oldest source of bible writings and jw used that to restore Bible as best as possbile...it doesn't have to be perfect because the Bible's main message shines through...No excuse because if you observe JW we are living in unity and organized because of the truth in the Bible.
haha Con you are supporting me...becAUSE INFAT one of my points is that besides the "why believe in this religion" question and the fundamental (BIBLE SAYS GOD ISN'T TESTING US AND AUING THESE PROBLEMS....QURAN SAYS GOD IS CAUSING THESE PROBLEMS)....THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THE QURAN...HAHA Con, didn't you realise I've been saying this?
Yes COn now show why jw conscientious objectors, peaceful Bible followers are not CHRISTIAN, using the Bible....unless CON IS SAYING CHRISTIANITY IS NOT BASED ON THE BIBLE. ARE YOU CON, haha (fake laugh)
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Phew! Last constructive round! Well done to my opponent and, as always to the tireless Judges.
OK Guys, the good news is that, as predicted, there's not been much new information added to PRO's latest round, so therefore not much to rebut.
I'm going to do them bullet point style, with quotes. Personally I find these a little tiresome to wade through so feel free to skip them if you like, or read on. I won't be offended either way!
LITTLE POINTS OF ORDER:
1. "Name one belief JW have that is not in the Bible."
Sure, I'll name three. Jesus is just a man, the Trinity is not real, and the Holy Spirit is not a distinct being. For extra credit, I'll give you three more: Only 144,000 people will ascend to Heaven, a Heaven which has only been established since 1914; Predestination is not a thing, and that works, (evangelism) is a way to ensure more brownie points with God.
Here's the critical thing with this - next round you may decide to try and argue all of these points with me. The problem is going to keep coming back to the fact that for your doctrines to be in the Bible, different translations of specific passages are required. And, since a good number of these issues are fundamental elements of Christianity - your disagreement means that you are not, by definition, Christian.
2. "Jesus taught peace... Islam doesn't do that."
Sufism is true Islam, and Sufism preaches peace above all else.
Secondly, Islam is an umbrella religion. In 1400 years, OF COURSE there are going to be subsets. What do you think happened to Christianity? Hinduism, Buddhism?
4. "...jw used that to restore Bible as best as possbile [sic]...it doesn't have to be perfect..."
Yeah I think you might even be disagreeing with the Watch Tower on this statement.
5. "...now show why jw conscientious objectors, peaceful Bible followers are not CHRISTIAN, using the Bible..."
And by the way, it's not like Jehovah's Witnesses are unique in their stance on Pacifism. Here's a list of MAJOR Christian denominations who also hold to that belief. Ironically, you'll note that Jehovah's Witnesses do not appear in this list.
6. "Gosh I really want this debate to concede."
In the fourth round, consistent with my pattern of introducing a new argument each round, I was planning on pointing out that it would be a better bet that Islam is true because Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people make it to heaven. Which seems like a made up number considering this is taken from all of human history. What are the chances of such a round number?
It's also a bit awkward when there are 8 million of you, but only 144,000 get to go...
It's all good though, because since JWs also believe that there's no hell, and that even a bunch of us non-believers get resurrected to live out our lives along side all those good JWs that spent their whole time keeping their trousers from getting caught in the chains of their bikes.
Basically, Islam makes sense because it's not a stupid made up cult that some guy dreamed up yesterday.
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