Krazy (PRO)I thank my opponent for setting up this debate. This will be fun.
I will be arguing that the Bible does support the use of capital punishment, including in the modern day.
For all passages I will use the English Standard Version (ESV). It’s a good translation that’s both accurate and easy to read as well at the same time.
First off, there’s no doubt that the Old Testament supported capital punishment. It had the death penalty ascribed for murder, rape, adultery, prostitution, bestiality, kidnapping, homosexuality, false prophet, and many more. And there was another difference, it was God who prescribed the death penalty in ancient Israel, not man. Ancient Israel was the only true theocracy in the world - in which God ruled directly.
But outside of ancient Israel, God has given human governments the authority to determine when the death penalty was due as well. Paul writes in Romans 13:1-3,
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
We see the same principle in Genesis 9:6,
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.”
So if all governing authorities are given by God, then we shouldn’t try to resist the government’s ability to give the death penalty.
I look forward to con’s responses.
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nzlockie (CON)Welcome Judges to what proves to be an exciting debate on the Death Penalty.
I thank my opponent for their first round - I look forward to hearing their biblical defense of the willful execution of God's creation.
The resolution is self explanatory - this debate will argue for and against the use of the Death Penalty as a sentence to be delivered by Man to Man. The rules of the debate specify that THIS debate will center around the BIBLICAL perspective. In 2015, does God favor the death penalty over some other form of punishment? Would Jesus pull the switch?
Judges, your duty in the debate is examine the evidence and decide whether the Christian message is a stronger advocate for the Death Penalty or for Restorative Justice.
Rebuttal
Old Testament rule: The Mosaic Law - It's true. The Old Law prescribed the Death Penalty for a WIDE range of sins. Along with the ones my opponent mentioned, his side would also need to advocate for the death penalty for the following "crimes": Atheism (or any other religious belief for that matter) ; Sex during your period ; Mowing the lawns on Sunday afternoon ; Not listening to your parents when they tell you to get a haircut and get a real job ; Not being a virgin when you get married (women only)
The problem with shifting this structure from Old Testament Israel to Modern day Earth is exactly what my opponent describes.
"...it was God who prescribed the death penalty in ancient Israel, not man. Ancient Israel was the only true theocracy in the world - in which God ruled directly." - PRO
This law was superceded by a new covenant instituted by Jesus in the New Testament. This is predicted in the Old Testament and cited numerous times in the New Testament - perhaps one of the clearest instances is this one from Hebrews:
"But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another." - Hebrews 8: 6-7
I will present irrefutable evidence that Jesus - who IS God, is not an advocate of the Death Penalty later in this round.My Government tells me that I must drive my car when I have had too many beers. Is THIS mandated in the Bible? Of course not!
Jesus - who is God; challenged the Pharisees to examine themselves and see who was worthy to judge by casting the first stone. None of them was without sin so they acknowledged that they could not make such a judgement and carry out the sentence.
In truth, there WAS one person there who was without sin - Jesus himself.
He demonstrates the fact that the Death Penalty is no longer valid by refusing to carry it out.
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: In your first round you stated that the resolution, that the bible supports the Death Penalty is shown by the fact that God has given governments the ability to determine for themselves if it is a good thing. : Ireland's government recently made homosexual marriage legal. Would you say that the bible therefore supports Gay Marriage?: Of course not. It is clear in Genesis that God made marriage to be between one man and one woman. Romans 13 doesn't say that whatever the government does is right. But it does say that we are to obey it. The only time when we can willingly disobey the government is when it commands us to do evil. For Acts 5:29 says that we should obey God rather than man.: Can you show me a verse of the Bible that prohibits governments from executing the death penalty for all instances?: No, and I don't need to. The onus is on you to show that the Bible advocates it, not that it doesn't prevent it. : So if you agree that not everything a government does is biblically supported, what impact does your verse have which commands us to obey governments?: It just means we should obey them. We have a good example from Paul. When he was writing Romans, Nero was the emperor of Rome. It's suffice to say that he was one of the most evil emperors of Rome. He committed some very heinous (such as gay marriage). For example, when the great Roman fire occurred in 64 anno domini, Nero was suspected of it. When he was accused of it, he executed some of the most gruesome tortures in Rome. Many would think that Paul would encourage us to rise up against this oppressive and evil ruler. We have Romans 13:1-7 instead. To submit to the government authorities.: That's pretty powerful, given the kind of emperor Nero was. So we are to obey the governing authorities, just as Paul said.: What is your response to Genesis 9:6?: A small part of the Noahic Covenent. Not prescriptive, merely observational. To be clear - this is not a "thou shalt", it's more a divine warning at a time where human life was particularly precious.: To sum up regarding government obedience - do you concede that this directive ONLY supports obedience to those in authority, and does NOT condone/endorse the actual actions themselves?: To answer directly - yes. But keep in mind, the governments are put there by God Himself. So to disobey the government would be like disobeying God. Human government was put in place to establish order, punish evildoers, and promote justice. The only time when the Bible permits us to commit civil disobedience is when the government commands us to do what God Himself told us to not do, and vice versa. Like for example, when the government tells us not to preach the gospel, we have to disobey because God tells us to do that in His Word.: And Paul recognized the power of the government to execute the death penalty when it is appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).: Thank you. No further questions your honor. Return To Top | Speak Round
Krazy (PRO)I thank my opponent for finishing round 1 and CX.
It is clear in Romans 13 that civil governments are instituted by God.
In Romans 12:19, Paul forbids personal revenge, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord’”. Then in Romans 13, Paul explains that we should leave punishment “to the wrath of God” meaning allowing punishment to come through the civil government, which is “the servant of God, and avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (13:4). So, while personal retaliation is forbidden, civil authorities are to punish evildoers.
In what way civil government decide to punish evildoers, that is up to human government, because human government is “an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:4; 1 Peter 2:14). It is clear in the Bible that the penalty for crimes are left up to the human governments, which are God’s avengers of God’s wrath. Whether the penalties be jail time or death, that is for the human governments to decide, as said in Romans 13.
When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).
God did have forgiveness when the death penalty was due at times. For example, David committed adultery and murder, both of which were punishable by death. A couple instances like this and the woman at the well should not be extrapolated and say that God doesn’t support the death penalty at all; He is the one who instituted it (Genesis 9:6). And He gave the authority for man-made governments to use it when they see fit (Romans 13:4).
It is unbiblical to claim that the Bible opposes the death penalty in all instances.
The resolution is affirmed.
Sources
ESV Study Bible
Got Questions Ministries
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nzlockie (CON)I thank my opponent for that round, and also for the CX which I'd like to recap first up.
My opponent concedes that, while the Bible commands us to obey those in power over us, it stops short of actually saying that whatever governments choose to legislate is also supported by the Bible. My opponent also points out that in some cases the Bible actually commands us to NOT obey the government - specifically, cases where the government mandate goes against God's mandate.
Round Two Point: Governments are God's avenging arm - therefore the Death Penalty is favored by God.
My side is not suggesting that this passage excludes obeying other laws aside from taxes, I don't think it does. It's also not specifically condemning whatever form of punishment the Roman overlords deemed fit.
However, crucially for PRO - neither does this passage suggest that the Roman laws were biblically moral, and neither does it suggest that their punishments, and indeed their system of trial, were biblically moral either. The Bible is FULL of examples where God uses immoral men to deliver his judgement to the Israelites, both on a national level, (eg. Egypt holding them as slaves for decades) and individually, (God giving Job over to Satan himself).
The Old Testament law that my opponent brought up was very clear. Death was prescribed for many sins. When God was walking the Earth as Man, He had ample opportunity to show that this sentence was still considered relevant today.
The quoted passage from Matt 5:38 finally reveals the truth that God and the Bible actually advocate, as far as Man goes - Forgive.
This concept is taught over and over again throughout the New Testament. And here's why:
"For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.” - 1 Sam 16:7
No, it advocates Man's forgiveness and God's unique qualification as Judge.
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: CON: Do you believe that Jesus truly WAS God? And that God wrote the Bible? And the the Bible expresses God's wishes for us?: Yes of course.: You said that in Genesis 9:6, that only applied because human life was precious. But isn't human life always precious, no matter how many people there are on the Earth?: Or to rephrase that question: Doesn't every human have the same value? Was Noah's life (and his most recent descendants) more valuable than ours on the sole reason that there were less people?: Was human life more precious when there were only eight humans alive? Yes. Yes it was. : This doesn't mean that human life is not precious at other times, only that it was MORE precious when there was a very real chance we might not be able to grow the population again. : CON: He allows us to do both, but does God prefer us to show mercy or to dish out just punishment?: It seems like He does both. And He prefers both. Even though He has love to an infinite degree, keep in mind He also has holiness to an infinite degree. Which means that He demands justice. Justice always needs to be served. He didn't just "forgive" us. He DID forgive us, but there still needed to be a punishment. Somebody has to take the penalty. That's the reason God the father gave God the son (Jesus Christ) the death penalty. Justice has to be served no matter what.: CON: To be very clear, you're saying that God prefer US to show justice to exactly the same degree as he prefers us to show mercy?: I'm saying the Bible seems to indicate that the most important nature of God is His holiness. Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8 describe God as "holy holy holy" 3 times. Holiness hates sin, and therefore demands justice. At the same time, love is another extremely important attribute of God also. Because in 1 John 4:8 says that God is love".: *Because 1 John 4:8 says that "God is love".*: Should mankind show mercy more than justice or vice versa? The Bible does not explicitly say. But given the attributes of God described in the Bible, there needs to be a healthy balance.: That's the only thing we can infer.: CON: yes, you seem to be missing part of my question. It's less related to ranking God's attributes as it is about trying to interpret God's wishes for us. : He wishes us to come to repentance and to saving faith in Jesus Christ. But in regards to the death penalty, it has little relevance. Yes, the death penalty cuts one's life short, but they still had their whole life to decide to have faith in Christ.: CON: In Matt 18:21-35, God appears to be very clear. His preference is that we mirror His mercy rather than His justice. This is likely due to our inability to judge a situation as well as him. : Who decides how many days a man has on earth?: Mathew 18:21-35 is talking about forgiveness of other people. It's not talking about sentences in courtrooms. Should we not punish murderers and let them roam free, in the name of "forgiveness"? Of course not. That's just lawlessness. And the Bible speaks about that very negatively. God decides the amount of days a man has. He also said that He instituted the governments (Romans 13:1) and that they are an avenger of His wrath (Romans 13:4). He acts through the governments in terms of punishing evildoers. So He allows the death penalty. He doesn't command it, but He does allow it.: CON: There's no need to take things to the extreme. Forgives and Mercy doesn't mean that murders go unpunished. Criminals can still be sentenced to jail time. This shows mercy and allows them to live out their natural lifespans... and possibly repent- something that a lot of prisoners do. : Yes, and some types of death penalties are more merciful than others.: CON: Haha. That's probably another topic. : Lol, yeah. "Should torture be used by the government".: CON: Matt 18:21-37 is very relevant to this debate as it truly reveals the desire of God for us to mirror his mercy and let him wort about the justice. This concept is record throughout the NT, in passages like the Beatitudes.: And also by example, from both Jesus and the Apostles.: CON: I want repeat my earlier question: Accepting that God allows both, do you think it pleases him MORE when we show justice or mercy to those who have wronged us?: Those passages are for man-to-man relationships. The truth is that God acts through the government to punish evildoers. If that's the case (which the Bible says it is), then if there was a type of punishment that God wouldn't allow, He would have said it in His Bible. Because Romans 13 makes it very clear that governments are instituted by God Himself.: I just now got your question. It depends on what you mean by “those who have wronged us”. It’s a complex question. Concerning justice, only governments have that authority. The Bible says that we’re supposed to have mercy and forgive our neighbors. But concerning court sentences, the Bible gives no indication of which penalties are too harsh.: When the Bible talks about forgiveness, it's always in the context of a heart attitude. It's never in the context of government sentences of punishments.: Including in the parable of the unforgiving servant that you mentioned. But the Bible never says that a specific punishment should be prohibited by the government.: CON: So your position is that the Death Penalty is God's preferred sentence for Murder because if it wasn't then the Government wouldn't be allowed (by God) to do it?: CON: (I plan to address your inference that government is completely detached from the will of us, the individuals, later.): No. I'm saying that the governments are His tool of wrath (Romans 13:4). He doesn't command governments to use the death penalty, but since they are His sword (Romans 13:4) of punishment, He does allow it.: CON: Is, "allow" in your mind, the same as, "support"?: Sure.: Interesting. : What does "This house supports the death penalty" mean?: Clearly not in every instance though right? You've already said that God doesn't support Gay marriage, even though he allows it...: Nevermind that question. I'll answer yours in a minute...: Romans 13 is clearly talking about punishment of evildoers. The purpose of the passage is to show that the purpose of governments is to punish evildoers. He does allow sin to happen (like homosexuality) but this is irrelevant to the death penalty. Since governments are instituted by God to punish evildoers, the method of punishment is left to the government to decide. And to claim that the Bible opposes the death penalty in all instances is unbiblical.: Nevermind, allow isn't the same thing as support. But the point is that God has given governments the authority to determine which punishment is appropriate for the crime. So we shouldn't oppose the government when it executes the death penalty.: Because according to Romans 13, God has given the governments the authority to determine when the death penalty is due. And the fact that He clearly supported it in Genesis 9:6 is also noteworthy.: OK. So would "advocate for" be a better synonym for support?: Yes, that's the same thing, yeah.: OK great. In a practical sense, do Christians elect the Government? And when they vote, doors it make sense that they would vote for a government which they feel best advocates for those things which God advocates for?: Do Christians elect the government? Well, ultimately, God appoints the leaders (Romans 13). We have a part in the democratic process, but ultimately, God is in control. And yes, we should vote for leaders who agree with biblical doctrine.: *(Romans 13:1)*: I'm interested to understand your inference that government is detached from individual. God tells individuals not to steal, is it fair to assume he also prefers governments not to steal? God tells individuals to care for the weak. Is it fair to assume that he also prefers governments to care for the weak?: God tells us to show mercy and leave vengeance to him, is it fair to assume he also prefers governments to do the same?: Yes, the government is separate from the individuals. If I "executed the death penalty" on somebody, I would be a murderer myself. But if the government does it, it's okay. Because all governments are instituted by God to punish evildoers. He says that stealing is wrong, no matter who does it. He also says that everybody should protect the weak and innocent. So to answer your first two questions: Yes and Yes. I'll answer your last one in a minute...: And yes, we should leave vengeance to him. That's why He instituted the governments and they are an avenger of His wrath. He puts the governments there to carry out the punishments. That's why vigilantees who lock people up in their own homes have no right to do that.: CON: So your stated position is that God expects government to adhere to the same principles as individuals in every example EXCEPT the one about showing mercy. Oh hang on, the one about not killing doesn't apply to them either. Is this right?: The point is, God has given governments the authority to execute the death penalty when appropriate. When a man murders somebody, the just penalty would be to end the life of the murderer. He makes this clear in Genesis 9:6. And considering mercy, the Bible says that governments are the the sword of God's "wrath" (Romans 13:4). Yes, His wrath. When the Bible talks about mercy, It's either in the context of Jesus dying for us, or forgiving our fellow man. Concerning government punishments, it says that governments are executors of God's wrath. This is what the Bible says.: CON: Thanks. I think I have a fair assessment of your position. Good luck for the final round!: Thanks man, you too!Return To Top | Speak Round
Krazy (PRO)I thank my opponent for finishing round 2 and relentlessly interrogating me in CX.
Now, it is clear in the Bible that God gave governments the authority to choose the punishments for criminals in Romans 13:1-7. It says that governments are the sword that God uses to carry out punishments (Romans 13:4). It’s in black and white here. It’s pretty clear. God uses governments to punish evildoers; whatever that punishment may be. And the death penalty is one of those punishments, particularly for the most evil of crimes. So God allows the government to use the death penalty when appropriate. Con tries to equate this to gay marriage, in that God “allows” it to happen. But here’s the difference: The Bible says that homosexuality is sinful. It does not say that the death penalty is wrong.
In fact, it seems to support it if anything, such as when God gave the first allowance for human government to use the death penalty in Genesis 9:6. Con says that God gave government the authority to execute the death penalty because the human population was small at the time. But that is not scripturally supported. That wasn’t the reason why God gave man the authority to use the death penalty. The Bible never says that’s the reason. So if that wasn’t the reason, then what was? The reason is inside the verse. The verse says: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in His own image” (Genesis 9:6). That’s the reason: “for God made man in His own image”. It wasn’t “for the human population was small”. It was because we are made in His image. To say that the reason was because the population was small would be “adding” stuff to the Bible. Nowhere in there does it say that. If a man murders another man, the just penalty would be for man to take the life of the murderer. The reason is that man is made in God’s image. So that makes murder a unique crime. Because if man is made in God’s image, and if a man murders him, that kinda says something. This puts murder into a category of it’s own. It’s unique. It’s a special sin. This isn’t to say that there is a “worse” sin or “the greatest” sin, but it’s just unique. Technically all sins are equal, all deserving hell. But murder is “unique” in that man murders man who is “made in His own image”. That’s why God prescribes the death penalty only for murder in Genesis 9:6.
God instituted the death penalty in the first place and did not hesitate to execute it. And God showed grace when the death penalty was due also. The first example of this was Cain, Adam and Eve’s very first child, as well as the first murderer. Adam and Eve were our ultimate grandfather and grandmother. Now, when Cain murdered Abel, God didn’t execute the death penalty. Instead, He sent him out as a wanderer on the earth. Another example was David, who was a murderer and an adulterer, both of which were punishable by death from the Mosaic law. But God didn’t kill him, another rare instance. But these very few instances should not be relentlessly extrapolated to say that God doesn’t want man to use the death penalty at all. He says we can use it (Genesis 9:6). He also says that governments are His tool of punishment (Romans 13:4). So we shouldn’t argue against whatever that punishment may be.
My opponent attempts to refute Romans 13 by saying that the passage doesn’t use the words “death penalty”. While true, it does say that the governments are His tool of punishment. And the death punishment fits the category of “punishment”.
My opponent says “…neither does this passage suggest that the Roman laws were biblically moral, and neither does it suggest that their punishments, and indeed their system of trial, were biblically moral either.” No, but it does say that the punishments are for the evildoers (Romans 13:4) and that is always just.
My opponent mentioned the fact that Jesus spared the adulterous woman. But the point of the passage was to expose the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. It wasn’t about abolishing the death penalty.
My opponent argues that since God is the perfect judge, only He should use the death penalty. While it is true that He is the perfect judge, He told man that it’s okay for us to use the death penalty (Genesis 9:6). And since He acts through human governments to avenge evildoers and to punish them (Romans 13:4), whatever punishment God uses through the government, the penalty is up to them.
My opponent brings up the point excessively that we should be forgiving, and therefore (so the argument goes) we should not use the death penalty. The problem with this logic however is that I could say that life in prison is “unforgiving” so therefore we shouldn’t use life in prison as a sentence. Another example, “50 years in prison without parole is so unforgiving; so we shouldn’t use that punishment because it’s a cruel and inhumane sentence”. Or “35 years in prison is so unforgiving; we should show forgiveness and lessen the punishment.” My opponent said that we should show mercy. If we are going to argue that way, then I could say that some forms of the death penalty are more merciful than others. Some are relentlessly painful torture, while others are supposed to be quick-and-easy. My opponent says that the death penalty should be abolished because “Taking a criminal’s life removes all possibility of that person coming to know God.” First, that’s false. They still had their whole lives right up to that point to decide to have faith in Jesus. Second, everybody dies eventually; and God gave the authority for us to give the death penalty (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7).
In summarization, to claim that the Bible opposes the death penalty in all instances is unbiblical.
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nzlockie (CON)I thank my opponent for their third and final round, and for letting me interrogate them relentlessly in CX.
As this is the final round in this debate, I'll be keeping new information to a minimum, summing up my side of the resolution, and explaining why I've won.
In the last round of CX, I grilled my opponent to establish the burden of proof he was attempting to prove. Note this section - I'm going to edit/format it here for readability and emphasis, but the entire exchange is there if you'd like to read for yourself:
CON: Clearly not in every instance though right? You've already said that God doesn't support Gay marriage, even though he allows it..
PRO: Nevermind, allow isn't the same thing as support. But the point is that God has given governments the authority to determine which punishment is appropriate for the crime. So we shouldn't oppose the government when it executes the death penalty.
PRO: Because according to Romans 13, God has given the governments the authority to determine when the death penalty is due. And the fact that He clearly supported it in Genesis 9:6 is also noteworthy.
As my esteemed opponent brings up, it's also shown by God in the story of Cain and Abel - particularly relevant as the crime here is literally Murder!
Why have I won this point?
In return, my side has shown from actual biblical examples, as well as from preached messages, that God's will is more in line with restorative justice - for example, jail time.
The resolution questions which form of punishment Jesus advocates for, and the answer is jail time.
This makes no logical sense.
My opponent does not disagree that sins are equal in the eyes of God. I've already shown this from the passages in Matthew. The Government has a responsibility of care to its citizens, so it is right and proper that convicted offenders should be safely removed from society - however, as a society we have an opportunity to advocate for mercy here - just as the Master did to his servant. And Matthew 18 tells us that this is God's preferred path for us to take.
I've pointed out several specific instances where God's opinion on this matter is revealed. Not obscure ones either - literally black and white.
By using jail time as opposed to killing them, we are giving them EVERY opportunity to repent, just as God gives us.
Would Jesus pull the switch?
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Judge: dsjpk5
Judge: admin