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That Islam is a religion of violence

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AliHussein123AliHussein123 (PRO)
 Throughout the debate, I will be quoting primary Islamic sources (Scriputure, Authentic narrations, Original Interpretatioons) which will be the following:

1- The Quran: the main Islamic scripture which Muslims believe to be the unaltered word of Allah.

2- Hadith: The authenticated narrations of the Prophet Muhammad

3- Tafsir:  Interpretations written by early major Muslim scholars.

 I aim to prove that Islam is a religion of violence by exploring  violent Islamic teachings:

1- Violent laws of Islamic Sharia.
2- Violent form of Jihad (Jihad Al Talab)
3- Violent actions performed by  Muhammad.

Violent laws of Sharia:

- Stoning and lashing:

  • Hadith: Umar said:  One of the things that Allah revealed to him was the verse of stoning. We recited it, memorized it and understood it, The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) stoned [adulterers] and we stoned them after him. [ Sahih Al-Bukhaari (6830) and Muslim (1691) ]

  • Quran:  The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. (Quran 24:2 Sahih International)

- Cutting off hands for theft:

  • Quran:  [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in
    recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from
    Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. (Quran 5:38 Sahih International)

  • Hadith: the Messenger of Allah delivered a speech....By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Faatimah the daughter of Muhammad were to steal, I would cut off her hand.” Then he ordered that the hand of that woman who had stolen be cut off. [ Sahih Al Bukhari (6788) and Muslim (1688) ]

- Crucifying the opponents of Muhammad:
  • Quran: The
    recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the
    land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on
    the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land
    . That is their disgrace in this world, and
    a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter. [ Quran 5:33 ]

  • Tafsir: The correct opinion is that this Ayah is general in meaning and includes
    the idolators and all others who commit the types of crimes the Ayah
    mentioned (Tafsir ibn Kathir for the previous verse 5:33

- Killing Apostates;
  • Hadith: The Messenger of  Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever  changes his religion, put him to death.”  Sahih [Al-Bukhari (6922) ]

Violent  Jihad:
-Killing Jews and Christians until they are humiliated:

  • Quran: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe
    not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath
    forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until
    they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.[Quran 9:29 Pickthall translation]

  • Tafsir:: (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled.  Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or  elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and  humiliated. [Tafsir ibn Kaathir]

Forced conversion:
  • Hadith: I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they
    testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger
    of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do
    that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic
    laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Al Bukhari (24)

  • And
    when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever
    you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them
    at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer,
    and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving
    and Merciful. [Quran 9:5]

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-03-08 16:24:09
| Speak Round
JackSpratJackSprat (CON)
Hello my friend.

Thank you for your very detailed, powerful and somewhat persuasive opening remarks.    I cannot argue that the narrative in the Qur'an or Hadith are there.  I certainly have no place to argue the interpretations of Tafsir.

What I do argue is that Islam is not a religion OF violence.  It is a religion of worship to Allah.  It is a religion of in the belief of angels, prophets and judgment day.    It is a religion with the belief of destiny.  

I will concede the fact the Islam has, and advocates violence in certain circumstances.   And whilst it. may appear to by a semantical argument, the word distinction is very important.  Islam is not a religion of violence or for the purpose of violence.    It is a religion that has violent elements, as in other Abrahamic religions, like Christianity and  Judaism.  Religions like Sikhism, Hinduism, and even Buddhism all have elements of violence.  

Whilst I would even concede that it could be argued that Islam is not a religion of peace, I would not say that Islam is a religion of violence.

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-03-09 00:20:28
| Speak Round
AliHussein123AliHussein123 (PRO)
Salam JackSprat,
Thank you for your detailed opening outline and argument. While I'd like to refute your main arguments, I will start first by giving more insight into the violent teachings of Islam and will proceed to respond to your stance about Islam not being a religion of violence.

Violent Laws of Islam and the life of Muhammad;

Killing the Verbal Critics of Islam
  • Quran: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for
    your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing
    to them: that thus they may be restrained. [Quran 9:12]     *Tafsir: (and attack your religion...) with disapproval and criticism, it is
    because of this that one who curses the Messenger, peace be upon him, or
    attacks the religion of Islam by way of criticism and disapproval, they
    are to be fought. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]

  • Hadiths and life of Muhammad:. Last night  she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a  dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon  the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Bear  witness, there is no blood money due for her.”  
     (Classed as Sahih by Albani in Sahih Sunan Abi Dawud 4361).

Harsh treatment of Non-Muslims
  • Quran: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.[Quran 48:29] 

  •  Tafsir: This is the description of the believers; harsh with the disbelievers,
    merciful and kind to the believers, angry without smiling before the
    disbelievers, smiling and beaming with pleasure before his believing
    brother. [Ibn Kathir]

Beating Wives into obedience:
  • Quran: Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over
    the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So
    righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's]
    absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom
    you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist],
    forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you
    [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted
    and Grand. [ Quran 4:34 Sahih International Trans.]

Attacking worship houses:
  • In the Pre-lslamic Period of Ignorance there was a house called Dhu-l-Khalasa or Al-Ka`ba Al-
    Yamaniya or Al-Ka`ba Ash-Shamiya. The Prophet (ﷺ) said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhu-l-
    Khalasa?" So I set out with one-hundred-and-fifty riders, and we dismantled it and killed whoever was
    present there. Then I came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and informed him, and he invoked good upon us and Al-
    Ahmas (tribe) [ Sahih Bukhari 4355]

Now I would like to move on to rebuttals:
  •  Your claim that Islam is a religion of belief rather than a religion of violence by referring to the six articles of faith in Islam is logically problematic, because having an ideology with certain tenets and belief system, which teaches its followers to promote this belief system by force as I illustrated in the previous round should be classified as a violent belief system. Nazism, for example, in its core has a set of beliefs and tenets (superiority of the Aryan race, welfare of Germany etc). Nevertheless, this doesn't make Nazism a non-violent ideology, since it deeply relied on violence to propagate itself.

  • As for your claim that Islam has some elements of violence as in all Abrahamic religions and world religions: whilst we can all agree that any religion could be twisted and employed for violenece, I believe the difference with Islam is the fact that violence is deep rooted in its scripture and the life of its founder. Till now, I know none other religion that stresses on using force to spread the faith, has violent law system to install itself in the society, and one that promotes violence even on a domestic level.

Good luck!

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-03-12 11:20:57
| Speak Round
JackSpratJackSprat (CON)
Hello my friend.

Again you have put together some powerful and somewhat persuasive arguments.  Well done.    I will concede that you are pushing me a little more into a corner.  In further research I have found over 100 Qu'ran passages that advocate, or promote violence for the purposes of supporting, and enforcing faith.

You have provided some fantastic examples, which are nearly cringe worthy.  The context you provide with Tafsir support is very clear. However there are two sides of scripture narrative to the story.  Here are a few examples.

The servants of the All-merciful are those who walk in the earth modestly and who, when the ignorant address them, say, ‘Peace’. (Q 25:63)

(not violence based)

Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Q  2:62)

(seems pretty tolerant)

My original argument is that there is a very distinct difference in religion of violence, and religion with or one that even advocates violence. I view the preposition "of" as very critical.   My aforementioned verse quotes are to support that initiative.  So I asked myself...

If Allah's intention was faith OF violence, would Gabriel not have said something to this affect during the first or second revelation?
If the foundation of the religion was to be violence, why is it not a clear article of faith?  You could argue clearly that violence is part of the article of faith in the Qu'ran, and the article of faith relating to Gods Will.  

However violence is not the central tenet.  I concede it is a clear and persuasive component.    And whilst it may appear like I am arguing against myself, we know Muhammad's Uncle warned of violence because of the story of Gabriel in the cave in the first revelation. That worry of violence could be argued was a factual concern based on history (how the jews treated Jesus, etc).

Finally, I believe your position linguistically means that there could not be Islam without violence. Let's ask, can there be Islam without violence. Answer is, theoretically yes. It is my limited understanding (very very limited), that violence suggested or arguably demanded in the sacred writings are conditional.   Conditioned on heresy, infidelity, theft, violations of the "rules" set established in the articles of faith.  If there are are o violations and full compliance, you still have a religion.  If Islam was a religion OF violence, then one must always have violence for there to be Islam. If you have no violence you have no substance to have a religion "of"..    That aforementioned postulation appears contradictory, and logically fallacious.


Return To Top | Posted:
2020-03-13 01:46:04
| Speak Round
JackSpratJackSprat (CON)
Islam, like other religions, has violence, and some of it may be significant.  The foundation of Islam is not violence.   There are five pillars of Islam: Bearing witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, observance of Prayer, paying Zakat, fasting during Ramadhan, and Pilgrimage to the house of Allah.

Violence is used and encouraged in the Qu'ran to support some of these pillars.  However, you will see violence is not one of the pillars.

Therefore it cannot be concluded that Islam is a religion of violence, and my opposition to this statement is valid.

Return To Top | Posted:
2020-03-18 03:04:18
| Speak Round

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