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Comments on Judge Decisions should be implemented

(PRO)
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(CON)
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Official Blue TeamOfficial Blue Team (PRO)
The Importance of Preserving Discussion 
Debate's mean different things to different people, but there is a common truth to the practice. Behind every passionate debate, there's a passionate debater. A thinly veiled, but ever existing piece of art. This... masterpiece, might not be apparent or appreciated by everyone, but it should resonate with two people. The artist and the critic. The artist being the debater, and the critic being the judge. What if we could expand on this relationship? What options are there to form a meaningful connection between the artist and the judge? 

I've spent time on all the major online debating sites, and none were more revolutionary, and progressive, then edeb8.com. I don't think we have to stop reinventing ourselves. It is time to enact major change to our community, and "judgement comments" seem like the perfect place to begin. 

The Connection: A painless path to connecting the judge and the debater
 The importance of discussion between the debater and judge should be inherently clear, but the process may not. I am proposing a simple but rewarding feature, that will both connect judges, and improve dialect between Edeb8's userbase. The idea, is to allow a member to issue a "comment", with his or her judgement rating. The Edeb8 judgement rating being an intuitive new feature allowing debate judgements to be "rated". 

Throughout the round, I will convince you of three things.
1. That judgement comment's significantly improve connectivity on edeb8.com
2. That judgement ratings significantly improve the quality of judge decisions 
3. That judgement comment's significantly improve the quality of debates

The Point: Improving Connectivity 
There has been much feedback and advice to the administration since the creation of this site, but there is a reoccurring trend in the feedback coming in. In fact, there was a recent comment made by a formerly active edeb8 member, explaining his problems with this site. 
""I don't much like serious debating all the time, which is why I'm so inactive on Edb8 and so much happier on DDO. Edb8 is SO BAD for social interaction." - EndarkenedRationalist 
I don't personally agree with the position, but this complaint has been brought up to many times to ignore. We simply can't ignore it. The demand for more members must equate to the demand for more social features, or else we will be alienating and polarizing future users from our site. Like many other members, I don't want more alienation or polarization to occur. 

A judgement comment seems like a small step, but I'm certain it is one in the right direction. With edeb8 membership at a level of 199, we need to make every interaction valuable, and build a friendly and caring community to not only make users join, but to make them stay. Not only do I feel that this feature will be a major improvement, but I am sure, that everyone stands to benefit from its implementation. 

Where Judges and Debaters Stand to Benefit 
 The judge is an inseparable part of debating. What use is a fine speech, without a fine critic? On edeb8, we don't only allow analysis to influence the outcome of a debate. We also accredit a degree of the final outcome to valuable feedback and advice. So valuable, that it has the power to change minds and how we debate. How we debate is how we reason, and boy, wouldn't we all be better off if more people used reason?

I expect this contention to come under heavy fire, and not because it is false or fallacious, but because it is true. And in this debate, the truth is on my side. 
One good, thoughtful, and helpful comment can be forged through two flames. The flame of ignorance, where it will fall on deaf ears, or the flame of wisdom, where someone might just take it to heart, and put it into effect. When it is put into effect, we get better judgements. Where we have better judgements, we have better debaters.

This train of thought needs little fleshing out. For it is the man who studies the arts the longest, who learns to do it the greatest. Before we can tell debaters how to "push harder, speak more eloquently, and think more passionately", we need to tell our judges how to "analyze better, study harder, and explain more illustriously". Only then, can we achieve the perfect online society of intellectuals and artisans. The perfect balance between the craft and the craftsman.

Am I blowing this out of proportion? Is this change as radical and revolutionary as I make it sound? I can't measure the value of your opinion, but I hope you're as confident as I am. Confident in change, and a better edeb8. Thank you,! I leave the floor to the Progressives


 

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-09-27 15:56:34
| Speak Round
ProgressivesProgressives (CON)
I thank my opponent for the challenge. No matter what happens this feature will probably be implemented anyway, but it's still a fun topic.

Judgments are not invitations for discussion
In much of edeb8, certain design choices have been made to facilitate a particular understanding of debate generally, and what a good debate or judgement ought to look like specifically. An example of this is the fact that judges are asked for constructive feedback to give to both debaters.

There are some debate websites that follow the model that a judgement is more like an opinion on the topic. This is not the case with edeb8. On edeb8, judgments should be related only to the performance of the debaters. An example of a design choice like this is in the description of a "vote bomb" available through judge ratings.

Topics are things that are discussed and, specifically, commented on. This is one reason why there are comments available on debates. Judgements, on the other hand, are not. They are final declarations of a judge's decision.

As I outline on edeb8's about page, I encourage debaters to get additional clarification from judges when they need it. That doesn't mean every judgement has to be an open dialogue for discussion with everybody. Instead, some simple private messages between the interested debater(s) and the judge ought to suffice.

Social Interaction
Edeb8 is by no means perfect, but I will gladly defend that it is the site most ahead in terms of social interaction. The main social issue with edeb8 is not a lack of features for communication, but a lack of members.

Since my opponent has put up DDO as a counter-example, allow me to explore some of the unique advantages edeb8ers enjoy over DDOians:
  • Live chat - we can communicate with each other privately in near-real-time, while they can't.
  • Shoutbox - we can shout, while they can't.
  • Teams - we can make teams and debate together. They can't.
  • Groups - we can make our own groups and discuss stuff relevant to our interests. They can't.
  • Status updates - while DDOians can leave messages on each others profile, it doesn't match the sophistication of the edeb8 system, particularly with replies, reposts, favoriting etc.
  • Forum formatting - for when we want things to be really bold, or to put an image into our post.
  • Profile customization - only edeb8 can have a "pimp my edeb8" competition.
  • Message formatting - DDO only allows basic formatting in private messages. Edeb8 allows a lot more.
  • ... and heaps of other minor things.

Comments on judgements is not the sort of feature that will entice people here. It's just another one among the hundreds of other improvements edeb8 has over its competition, not a game-changer any way you twist it.

My opponent's model doesn't even allow discussion
By attaching comments exclusively to ratings, you prevent two important things. First, you prevent users from having more than one message at a time, since there can only be one rating. Second, you prevent the judge from responding to your post. This is particularly unhelpful when most of the time, one ought only really to be asking a judge for clarification. I want my opponent to tell us what kind of helpful comments he really expects to see.

There's a huge disincentive to even using this system in that it de-anonymizes your judge rating.

I agree completely that good judgments makes great debating. But this model doesn't help either the debaters or the judges. If they want to talk, they can already do so in so many ways. But this model simply does not provide the solution to the problems the blue team has put forward.

Vote con.

Return To Top | Posted:
2014-10-05 09:31:41
| Speak Round


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BlackflagBlackflag
Earlier is more preferred, but anytime works on my empty schedule.
Posted 2014-09-28 21:38:31
adminadmin
Csareo - Would earlier be more convenient for you? I'm really not sure, I've got a lot of work this week but am hoping to squeeze in this debate somewhere before the weekend.
Posted 2014-09-28 16:57:33
BlackflagBlackflag
For the sake of time, when can we expect the next argument? Does the win = implementation policy apply for this debate?
Posted 2014-09-28 10:37:00
BlackflagBlackflag
I'm trying a new strategy I'm tagging "bait and bleed". I'm making a convincing policy case in the beginning, and baiting you into making the arguments for me. Where I will bleed them out in the final round.

Oh, and I'm taking feedback on this debate very seriously, and to heart. This is the second time I used a thesaurus for a debate.
Posted 2014-09-27 15:58:55
adminadmin
(remember to wait a minute on the page after typing your test to be 100% sure that it saves)
Posted 2014-09-25 22:52:46
adminadmin
There you go
Posted 2014-09-25 22:52:16
adminadmin
Yes, will do shortly, but the draft will be deleted because of this.

Make a new test :)
Posted 2014-09-25 22:51:01
BlackflagBlackflag
...... I did not mean to submit it.............
Admin, can you reset the round?
Posted 2014-09-25 22:49:47
adminadmin
First rated team debate I think.
Posted 2014-09-23 10:05:56
9spaceking9spaceking
why the heck is this only one round? You're practically begging for a Classic JMK-One-round snipe
Posted 2014-09-23 09:00:15
9spaceking9spaceking
lol, Csearo vs JMK + Admin + SH
Posted 2014-09-23 08:59:42
9spaceking9spaceking
interesting....
Posted 2014-09-23 08:58:53
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Since I could not use the conventional method for team debates, I would like to use the leader reply box for rebuttals, if that is okay with my opponent.

No trouble on time, I've given a month allowance to post