Feminism and LGBT rights

admin: For example ending the stigmatization of the idea of feminism, like you dismissing my ideas as SJW or whatever.

What ideas? You haven't even assigned any ideas to feminism.

You are making a shitty case for your brand of feminism, by not providing a single detail on what feminism is supposed to constitute in terms of political policy or social change.

To expect anything less than cynicism with your poor advertising is lame.

Hiding opposition to feminism behind ad homs is destructive to progressivism and needs to stop.

Good.

Your "progressivism" is taking us all to an early grave.

The ideology comes from a place of self-loathing and emptiness in life.

Crow: Goals are the most important ideas of all. They might not have immediate consequence but they reveal not only moral character, but often, long-term direction as well.

admin: What are your goals?

You are not defining your beliefs at all?

You say people should not be cynical of feminism, but are providing not a single reason why we should support feminism, nor giving us the slightest clue of what feminism constitutes.

Crow: Sure, I stated that goal a few posts ago.

Feminism is the belief that genders should be substantively equal, especially as pertains to society and the law.

admin: Sure, I stated that goal a few posts ago.

To not stigmatize feminism?

I do not stigmatize feminism. I have not heard one person in this thread stigmatize feminism.

Feminism is the belief that genders should be substantively equal, especially as pertains to society and the law.

So what are your goals for political policy and social change?

Crow: Oh really? Because the moment I mentioned I'm a feminist you were pretty dismissive of me.

My goals for political policy etc are at best only informed by my feminist affiliation. I also oppose ageism and other forms of discrimination. Recently for example I've been somewhat active in what I would consider a deeply feminist cause in making it easier to get an abortion over here. Such goals however only support my own idea of feminism - another feminist may disagree entirely with this and that would be fine. Feminism itself does not dictate any policy, only an ideological aim.

admin: Because the moment I mentioned I'm a feminist you were pretty dismissive of me.


Actually no.

It was the moment you said you were aligned with modern feminism.

My goals for political policy etc are at best only informed by my feminist affiliation. I also oppose ageism and other forms of discrimination.

In what ways are women being discriminated?

Recently for example I've been somewhat active in what I would consider a deeply feminist cause in making it easier to get an abortion over here

Debatable whether that is a feminist cause.

Pregnant women act as host for something created through a males sperm.

Feminism itself does not dictate any policy, only an ideological aim.

Earlier you recognized women have more social leverage than men in a lot of cases.

If your goal is equality, then does that mean you support stripping away the social leverage women currently have over men?

Here is just an observation of mine

Social Justice Warrior male "feminists" have trouble getting women in real life. They are generally socially awkward and females think they are unattractive smucks.

Does anyone share my analysis? This is what I would like to discuss.

Crow: It was the moment you said you were aligned with modern feminism.
Either way, same problem.

In what ways are women being discriminated?
Some places in the world it's more transparent than others, like Saudi for example. In the west it's usually more minor things, like work and living conditions.

Pregnant women act as host for something created through a males sperm.
And yet only the female has to go through the trouble of an abortion, which is incredibly traumatizing. To add insult to injury the process is needlessly difficult, any many are reprimanded for their choice, something men never have to face. That is how I justify it in terms of my beliefs.

Of course, other feminists disagree and I totally respect that. Feminism is an end, and it does not dictate policy.

If your goal is equality, then does that mean you support stripping away the social leverage women currently have over men?
No, I'd support empowering men.

admin: Either way, same problem.


Nope.

Mainstream feminists disrespect the ideals of their predecessors by advocating affirmative action and instigating outcry against honesty.

Some places in the world it's more transparent than others, like Saudi for example. In the west it's usually more minor things, like work and living conditions.


How are women being discriminated at work and at their residences, in the western world?

And yet only the female has to go through the trouble of an abortion, which is incredibly traumatizing.

Also incredibly immoral, disrespectful, and abusive.

If a women is getting an abortion, it is because that woman wanted an abortion. The traumatizing experience is of her own doing.

No, I'd support empowering men.

Many of the social advantages women have actively hold back and arguably even oppress men.

Shouldn't they be stripped away since they are harmful to equality?

Crow: Mainstream feminists disrespect the ideals of their predecessors by advocating affirmative action and instigating outcry against honesty.
I support the same goals even though I may occasionally disagree with the means.

How are women being discriminated at work and at their residences, in the western world?
Everything from pay to domestic violence stats are disproportionately slanted against women. There's reasons for that beyond discrimination, but some of it is discrimination.

The traumatizing experience is of her own doing.
See at this point you're denying women their reproductive rights while guaranteeing the same rights to men. And that's not fair, in my personal view. Other feminists may disagree.

Shouldn't they be stripped away since they are harmful to equality?
No, because it's far better to improve the social advantages of everybody.

admin: Affirmative action- an action or policy favoring those who tend to suffer from discrimination, especially in relation to employment or education.
You said this earlier:
I'd define it as the active belief that more needs to be done to empower those of marginalized genders.
It sounds like you do support some form of affirmative action. Whether it be through state policies or voluntarily by business.

admin: I support the same goals even though I may occasionally disagree with the means.

The ends are always justified and determined by the means.

The end goal of mainstream feminism is female entitlement. Even if that is not what was set out to do (although many mainstream feminists openly support female dominance)

Everything from pay to domestic violence stats are disproportionately slanted against women. There's reasons for that beyond discrimination, but some of it is discrimination.


How much of it do you think constitutes discrimination.

Equal pay is something expunged by second wave feminists. Which still exist, but are not the latest wave, IE, mainstream.

See at this point you're denying women their reproductive rights while guaranteeing the same rights to men. And that's not fair, in my personal view. Other feminists may disagree.

I am not denying a woman's ability to get an abortion. I am just stating that the decision affects more lives than just her own, such as the conceived life and the father.

Ultimately you cannot go through with this evil, inhuman, and abominable act without a woman. It is still her choice, and her consequence to live with,. It has nothing to do with female equality or empowerment though, given that once again the choice affects more lives than her own.

No, because it's far better to improve the social advantages of everybody


Then it would not be a social advantage. The very definition of an advantage implies that it is slanted against another party.

Call it female privilege if you would like. Mainstream feminists tell men to check their male privilege, so just reverse that to apply for women.

Do you think, like men are told to do by feminists, that women should check their female privilege?

Crow: The end goal of mainstream feminism is female entitlement.
Not in my view.

How much of it do you think constitutes discrimination.
Depends on the context.

not the latest wave
Third wave feminism is defined by the belief in invisible social barriers. Like this opposition to feminism is a barrier or what I was saying about reproductive rights.

affects more lives than her own
So does a woman's right to vote.

Do you think, like men are told to do by feminists, that women should check their female privilege?
I don't think the expression is helpful for either gender, as it is destructive. But in general, sure, where females are advantaged I'd call on them to help males rather than fight them.

admin: Not in my view.

Do you believe that affirmative action leads to female entitlement?

That is what mainstream feminists are advocating for, so do you you believe that will lead to the end goal of equality?

So does a woman's right to vote.

Not sure what they has to do with anything.

I don't think the expression is helpful for either gender, as it is destructive. But in general, sure, where females are advantaged I'd call on them to help males rather than fight them.

So you believe it is okay for other groups to have unequal leverage in society, as long as they use that leverage to help others?

Does this mean you believe feminists should not tell men to check their male privilege, even though a lot of activists like to use that phrase?

Crow: do you you believe that will lead to the end goal of equality?
I don't believe that affirmative action works

Not sure what they has to do with anything.
The impact our decisions have on others is not a qualifier for our right to make those decisions inherently. This is true of both genders.

as long as they use that leverage to help others?
No, I'm saying they should work to build others up so that the leverage no longer exists. Just as males should help females in other respects. Little privilege jabs are destructive and accomplish nothing.

Does this mean you believe feminists should not tell men to check their male privilege
Yes - I understand their point but the phrase is unhelpful.

Bi0Hazard: Men and women are simply different genders, not specific stereotypes
Exactly, it is simple. Which is why I said earlier that it's not complicated. Men and women are different (just like you said) and should not try to rebel against the gender that they were born with. Men are naturally stronger and take the lead, while women are the weaker, submissive and following sex. Feminism is anything but feminine. Their message is basically "Women should act like men to have more value in society".

Crow: Explain how gender stereotypes come from a place of common sense?
Well that's a pretty loaded question. A stereotype is an oversimplified image. It's not oversimplified, it's just simple. And it's not an image, it's reality. There are two sexes. They are different. A man is a thermos. A woman is a crystalline goblet.

Krazy:
What are men and women supposed to act like, and what is it based off of?

You said common sense. Explain in further detail.

Krazy: Men and women being different genders doesn't mean they should act in certain ways.
Your fallacy is in differences implying specific stereotypes.