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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 29 2015 8:49 PM
You can get up to seven years in prison for telling someone the best way to commit suicide. I find that oppressive, and thankfully state officials don't enforce that law in Michigan.
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 29 2015 8:57 PM
Blackflag: What if he's not dying, but asks for help killing himself. Is it bad if he wants to die?

There comes a point in everybody's life in which they wish to die, mainly to escape suffering. But murdering yourself is just plain out wrong. It is better to suffer through life then to commit suicide.

Understood, but you are doing that thing where you think you know what is best for other people in their lives.

What "lives"? They're killing themselves.

Then you don't have to respect them, but you do have to live with them. It is essential for the preservation of our own liberty that we don't control actions directly related to ones individual.

Hold on, hold on a minute. I never said we shouldn't respect the people committing murder. You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying. You said "Then you don't have to respect THEM". I never said that we shouldn't respect THEM. I said that we shouldn't respect the wrong actions that THEY commit.

I never said "preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss." I'm not sure why that's in a quote box. It's not from me.

Exactly. I'm pro-choice on salvation. You?

What do you mean "pro-choice" on salvation?
admin
By admin | Jul 29 2015 9:07 PM
Blackflag: They may be unjust obligations, but they are obligations all the same. Society and the government oblige us to follow them, and whether we choose to is another issue.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 29 2015 9:07 PM
There comes a point in everybody's life in which they wish to die, mainly to escape suffering.
Everybody's considered suicide at one point, but few people have actually made attempts.

But murdering yourself is just plain out wrong. It is better to suffer through life then to commit suicide.
Again, says you. People disagree on certain things. To instill your beliefs on others is the very authoritarianism we tried to escape from when we came to the New World. The very form of authoritarianism we sought to destroy during WW2.

What "lives"? They're killing themselves.
They are living when they commit the act, that is what's important.

Hold on, hold on a minute. I never said we shouldn't respect the people committing murder
Well, do you respect murderers?

I never said "preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss." I'm not sure why that's in a quote box. It's not from me.
It is from the dictionary

What do you mean "pro-choice" on salvation?

Do you believe people who reach a certain age should be able to choose whether or not they want to live?
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 29 2015 9:29 PM
Blackflag: Everybody's considered suicide at one point, but few people have actually made attempts.

That's true.

Again, says you.

No, says the Bible. I'm not the one who came up with these moral laws. God came up with them, and He says that it's wrong in His Bible. There is no other way to determine what's right and wrong.

People disagree on certain things. To instill your beliefs on others is the very authoritarianism we tried to escape from when we came to the New World. The very form of authoritarianism we sought to destroy during WW2.

It's impossible to not legislate morality. That's what laws do. A law that prohibits rape, for example, instills a belief on others that rape is wrong. This is a good thing. Everyone needs to believe that rape is wrong. It's not an issue of "should anyone impose their values on others". It's a matter of "whose values will reign supreme in society?".

They are living when they commit the act, that is what's important.

What's important is that they live. It is always better to be alive. That's why human euthanization is wrong. It's murder.

Well, do you respect murderers?

Course I do, as with anyone.

It is from the dictionary

My apologies.

Do you believe people who reach a certain age should be able to choose whether or not they want to live?

No human is in the right to choose when they live or die.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 29 2015 9:35 PM
No, says the Bible. I'm not the one who came up with these moral laws. God came up with them, and He says that it's wrong in His Bible. There is no other way to determine what's right and wrong.
I get that. I too believe suicide is a moral negative. I don't try to impose my own religious and moral beliefs on the choices of others though.

A law that prohibits rape, for example, instills a belief on others that rape is wrong. This is a good thing. Everyone needs to believe that rape is wrong. It's not an issue of "should anyone impose their values on others". It's a matter of "whose values will reign supreme in society?".
I think there is a difference between rape and commiting suicide.

If I rape someone, I am imposing harm on someone else. If I commit suicide, the only one I am harming is myself. I believe that personal decision is an essential liberty.

What's important is that they live. It is always better to be alive. That's why human euthanization is wrong. It's murder.

I prefer the term, "consensual mercy killing. "

No human is in the right to choose when they live or die.
Fine, they aren't morally "right." You have made that very clear.

Do you think people should be allowed to commit to immoral actions like masturbation and idol worship, even though those acts are against the words of the bible?
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 29 2015 9:35 PM
They are living when they commit the act, that is what's important.
What's important is that they are alive. Suicide kills your life.
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 29 2015 9:45 PM
Blackflag: I get that. I too believe suicide is a moral negative. I don't try to impose my own religious and moral beliefs on the choices of others though.
You don't impose moral beliefs on others? So you wouldn't tell somebody that rape is wrong? Or stealing or lying or whatever?

I think there is a difference between rape and commiting suicide.
If I rape someone, I am imposing harm on someone else. If I commit suicide, the only one I am harming is myself. I believe that personal decision is an essential liberty.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't hurt anybody else. Are you saying that everyone decides right and wrong for himself? If so, why?

Do you think people should be allowed to commit to immoral actions like masturbation and idol worship, even though those acts are against the words of the bible?
Masturbation and idolatry are evil, and nobody should do those.
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 29 2015 9:47 PM
Do you believe in moral relativism?
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 30 2015 4:24 AM
You don't impose moral beliefs on others? So you wouldn't tell somebody that rape is wrong? Or stealing or lying or whatever?

Let me rephrase that.I don't impose my moral and religious views on the personal choices of others.

Also, I would tell someone suicide is wrong, and actively discourage them from doing it.

Are you saying that everyone decides right and wrong for himself? If so, why?
Morals are a constant for the most part. I just believe people should have the liberty to decide for themselves what actions are morally acceptable.

Masturbation and idolatry are evil, and nobody should do those. '
Yeah, you aren't answering my question.

In the United States of America , should someone be allowed to masturbate and worship gods other than those sanctioned by Christianity? Why or why not?
Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jul 30 2015 6:27 AM
Blackflag: Verses in the Bible have together implied that God is opposed to suicide.
However, even if I were an atheist I'd think suicide for young people is still a bad idea in most situations. Why? Because there'd be three default states: pleasure, pain, and neutral (true neutrality on the pleasure-pain spectrum can generally be accomplished only through complete loss of consciousness and/or death). Overall happiness in life is the objective for which most people strive. This cannot be achieved if you're dead. Instead, things should be done to change their situation (either by society, friends and family, or just the person in question) so that they no longer feel that living is a net detriment.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 30 2015 7:30 AM
I think everybody on this site agrees that suicide is immoral. I'm not sure whether we all agree on if it should be legal or not.
admin
By admin | Jul 30 2015 8:22 AM
Blackflag: There is quite often a difference between what people are able to do, allowed to do, and/or should do.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 30 2015 10:19 AM
admin: Your point being?

I should be allowed to kill myself.

This is what I am arguing. I can't get a straight answer from anyone if they disagree with this stance.,
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 30 2015 1:54 PM
Blackflag: Let me rephrase that.I don't impose my moral and religious views on the personal choices of others.
But that is exactly what laws do. A law against theft imposes a moral view on the personal choices of thieves that stealing is wrong. So they choose not to steal. Laws inevitably do that. If nobody's moral views were imposed on the personal choices of others, that would naturally lead to anarchy or lawlessness.

I just believe people should have the liberty to decide for themselves what actions are morally acceptable.
This thinking would lead to societal chaos if everyone truly believed it. If I decide for myself what actions are morally acceptable, then I can decide, for myself, that murdering for fun is right. After all, I do have the liberty to decide for myself what actions are morally acceptable.

Yeah, you aren't answering my question.
Then could you rephrase it? Because I'm not sure if I'm understanding it.

In the United States of America , should someone be allowed to masturbate and worship gods other than those sanctioned by Christianity? Why or why not?
Of course they should be "allowed" to by law. If masturbation was illegal, that would be extremely hard to enforce. And religious freedom is protected under the first amendment.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 30 2015 3:30 PM
But that is exactly what laws do. A law against theft imposes a moral view on the personal choices of thieves that stealing is wrong. So they choose not to steal. Laws inevitably do that. If nobody's moral views were imposed on the personal choices of others, that would naturally lead to anarchy or lawlessness.
Sure, you need some laws, like to prevent stealing and murder, but the more laws you have the more oppressive and authoritarian your nation is.

Things like stealing and murder are outlawed because they are directly harmful to another person, whereas personal actions like doing drugs and commiting suicide are not.

If I decide for myself what actions are morally acceptable, then I can decide, for myself, that murdering for fun is right. After all, I do have the liberty to decide for myself what actions are morally acceptable.

Murder is imposing your will on another person, so I wouldn't keep resorting to that extremity. If we must compare though, making a law that imposes your moral beliefs on another person should probably be illegal.

Of course they should be "allowed" to by law. If masturbation was illegal, that would be extremely hard to enforce. And religious freedom is protected under the first amendment.
You don't think banning suicide is hard to enforce? Also, the first amendment is just words on a piece of paper, I don't see the signifigance.

If you want to reference the constitution though, the US founding fathers for the most part believed that personal choice to ones individual should be protected at all costs.
admin
By admin | Jul 30 2015 3:40 PM
Blackflag: It doesn't matter. What you should be allowed to do can be very different from what you should do, as well.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 30 2015 3:53 PM
It doesn't matter. What you should be allowed to do can be very different from what you should do, as well.
It is all subjective. The authoritarians might not allow me to do something, but I can allow myself to do something.
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 30 2015 5:19 PM
Blackflag: Sure, you need some laws, like to prevent stealing and murder, but the more laws you have the more oppressive and authoritarian your nation is.
Wrongdoers must be oppressed. That is the purpose of laws: to enact authority into society and to oppress evildoers from doing evil. Is authoritarianism bad?

Things like stealing and murder are outlawed because they are directly harmful to another person, whereas personal actions like doing drugs and commiting suicide are not.
They are illegal because they are morally wrong. Directly harming another person is just a "side effect" of the wrong. Practicality does not determine right and wrong.

Murder is imposing your will on another person, so I wouldn't keep resorting to that extremity. If we must compare though, making a law that imposes your moral beliefs on another person should probably be illegal.
Imposing your will on another person is not what makes murder wrong. It is wrong because God said it's wrong. The effects of a wrong is not what makes it wrong. Are you saying that harm to another person is what defines right and wrong?

You don't think banning suicide is hard to enforce? Also, the first amendment is just words on a piece of paper, I don't see the signifigance.
Suicide is far more serious than masturbation. People who want to commit suicide are usually depressed and insecure. If they know that there is a law against suicide, it will send a message to them that what they are about to do is wrong so that they will straighten their act up and reconsider their actions or potential actions. I don't think masturbation should be illegal because it's not really that serious. If a court passed a law against masturbation though, I wouldn't have any problem with it. And, as far as I'm aware of, those words on that piece of paper is still the law of the land. That's why it's called the "Constitution". Constitution literally means "law". Or, more accurately, "the law of laws".

If you want to reference the constitution though, the US founding fathers for the most part believed that personal choice to ones individual should be protected at all costs.
You're not referencing the constitution. You're referencing the founding fathers. The reason I referenced the constitution was because you confined your question strictly to the United States and nowhere else. Either way though, what the founding fathers believed is irrelevant, the constitution is what's the law.

Question: What determines right and wrong? Is it harm to another person? Is that the only criteria that makes something immoral?
Krazy
By Krazy | Jul 30 2015 5:49 PM
Allow me to clarify. Suicide should be illegal because laws reflect the moral fabric of society. Sometimes, it doesn't matter if you can't enforce some of the laws. The fact that there is a law against a certain action sends the message to the rest of society that it is wrong. And that is the point. It's also worth noting that some people don't commit an illegal action solely because it is illegal, regardless if it can be enforced. The sole guilt of committing an illegal activity can be enough to deter some people from committing it.
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