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JoMomma
By JoMomma | Jul 28 2016 4:10 PM
admin: Equality is intangible. There are no guarantees. It is up to each individual to discover self empowerment and make the most of whatever they have an aptitude for. For those who have been truly disadvantaged because of partaking in war, or living in communities where self empowerment is nearly impossible, safety nets should exist, where charity fails. Ultimately my goal is to share self empowerment techniques that motivate me with those individuals who feel the most powerless.
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admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:12 PM
Crow: Otherwise we are just machines with sensors attached
And in your view, the prefrontal cortex is somehow more "mechanical" than the limbic system?

Humans love war. That is why thousands of millions have joined militaries.
They have done so on the basis of lies, intolerance and deceit. When they come to experience war, most of them go crying to their mommies.

A great life is tragic.
Greeks more looked up to Achilles or Perseus than Odysseus. Saying that Odysseus had a great life would be like saying Romeo and Juliet had a great romance.
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admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:13 PM
Crow: Then the state is not holding a gun to your head.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 28 2016 4:14 PM
admin: They have done so on the basis of lies, intolerance and deceit.

The foundations of hate. Very inhuman.

When they come to experience war, most of them go crying to their mommies.


Untrue.

Most die.
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admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:15 PM
JoMomma: As jobs become more scarce, inequality rises. People have to work less now than ever before. At some point only the elite find work, and eventually, people won't even need to work anymore. And the problem will get worse. That's the trajectory we're on now. As that problem increases in size, so should the safety net.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 28 2016 4:15 PM
admin: Metaphorically it is.

How much do you think the state will tolerate dissent, before finally locking you up in a dark cell, or putting a bullet in your brain?

I should write a book titled "The naive liberal apologist for authoritarian governments"
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admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:18 PM
Crow: Most die.
Not mutually exclusive. I'm sure most die while also being upset about going in the first place. As in We Will Not Cease, the soldiers are the biggest supporters of the objectors.

How much do you think the state will tolerate dissent
Up to the amount permissible by law. In a democracy that's socially determined. I can't speak for where you live but over here, I don't believe our government is secretly being controlled by an outside entity or something.
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JoMomma
By JoMomma | Jul 28 2016 4:19 PM
admin: People will provide services to one another at some point! We will have the cleanest earth with the most delicious restaurants. There will always be these kinds of jobs for those who WANT to work - and I am one who does.
Crow
By Crow | Jul 28 2016 4:21 PM
admin: Up to the amount permissible by law.

Who creates the law?

The state.

In a democracy that's socially determined.

For starters, there has never been a democratic state.

In some way or another, you are just electing your next master.

I can't speak for where you live but over here, I don't believe our government is secretly being controlled by an outside entity or something.


Neither do I.

There is, factually speaking, a group of people with more political power than everyone else in the state.

Even in a system where majority vote wins, the majority become the rulers, and the minority become the slaves.
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JoMomma
By JoMomma | Jul 28 2016 4:21 PM
Crow: no comment - don't want to give them the satisfaction
admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:23 PM
JoMomma: Kinda hard if your dream job is to be, IDK, a telecommunications engineer, all the big telecoms are largely run by computer algorithms etc... I suppose it depends on your barriers to entry. More creative stuff I don't see dying out for some millennia yet.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 28 2016 4:24 PM
JoMomma: Admin has said many times he wants to live in a world where robots do all the work for humans, and we all just live peaceful lives only engaging in fun activities.

I call that hell.
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admin
By admin | Jul 28 2016 4:25 PM
Crow: In some way or another, you are just electing your next master.
Say you cast a vote for yourself... ?

Even in a system where majority vote wins, the majority become the rulers, and the minority become the slaves.
As an active opponent of the current government, I do not consider myself their slave in any way.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 7:46 AM
admin: Say you cast a vote for yourself... ?

I do not understand what you are asking.

As an active opponent of the current government, I do not consider myself their slave in any way.

Right, we went over the whole "house nigger" thing.

Just because someone has been conditioned to think he has full control, does not mean that man is any less of a slave.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 2:30 PM
Crow: I'm saying that "master" is an inadequate term because there are no slaves. So my question is, how can you be a slave to yourself?

I don't think I have full control. Lacking control over laws does not make you a slave. If you think that's slavery then you must have a very rosy picture of one of the darkest chapters in human history.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 3:11 PM
admin: I'm saying that "master" is an inadequate term because there are no slaves. So my question is, how can you be a slave to yourself?

You are a slave to the greater demographic that makes all the decisions.

That is only if a statist democracy were possible, which it is not.

Essentially as long as the state controls and regulates your life, you are property. What is slavery? The practice of making humans into property.

I don't think I have full control. Lacking control over laws does not make you a slave.

Actually it does, when those laws are used to regulate, condition, oppress, and control you.

You just do not want to acknowledge the equivalency, since you are a liberal apologist for authoritarian governments.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 3:16 PM
Crow: I'm also PART of the society that makes decisions. As a government where minorities inherently have a large amount of say, there's no problem with that. Nor am I property, because no person possesses me. The state is not a person.

I think part of your issue is that you see all governments as authoritarian aiming to oppress people, where I see some governments as people genuinely trying to help each other. Help is also a form of control but it is not negative.
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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 3:22 PM
admin: I'm also PART of the society that makes decisions.

You are conditioned into believing that.

And even if you were actually equal to everyone in your government, then you need to acknowledge that you are still enslaved to the majority. Even if you fight against it with your vote.

Nor am I property, because no person possesses me. The state is not a person.

It is overseen by a body of people.

And you are there property, as long as they control and regulate your life.

Stop being an apologist. Stop being a house nigger.

I think part of your issue is that you see all governments as authoritarian aiming to oppress people

I do not believe that about all governments, but it is a fact for all states.

The only functions a state can performs are controlling, regulating, conditioning, and oppressing. That is a fact.

where I see some governments as people genuinely trying to help each other.

Know what that sounds like.

"Obey! I am doing this for your own good"

Like an overbearing nanny.

You do not need an institution of force to help people. Actually, that is the best way to screw people over.

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Crow
By Crow | Jul 29 2016 3:24 PM
admin: Help is also a form of control but it is not negative.


Evil is a leach upon good intentions.

You are an apologist for a body that steals and imprisons its people.

Translate that into a children's book, and you are a monster.
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admin
By admin | Jul 29 2016 3:53 PM
Crow: You can say I'm conditioned into believing anything. You're equally conditioned into believing what you believe. In and of itself it's not like there's a harm in learning from our surroundings if we take conditioning in the classical sense. I've never been in trouble with the law, so it can't be claimed I'm acting in response to negative incentives. But insofar as I am enjoying the benefits of living under a state I see no problem with it either.

The idea of tyranny of the majority rests on a particular conception of democracy. It is not inherent to the concept. If anything I feel the minorities have more control over our government, put together, than our government has control over us. If you're used to American style winner-takes-all democracy then I kinda see your point but there's checks and balances on the system even there. That's the point of separation of powers.

Using loaded racial and personal attacks is not going to be constructive or achieve anything. If you're saying that I am the property of society, then I think that's a set problem since I'd be my own property. If you're excluding me from the group of my control, I'd disagree with your conception of government, since I'm part of the government.

Public goods are a prime example of why you need institutions to effect some forms of good, because nobody is willing to pay for or produce them, but we all know we need them.

People aren't stolen or imprisoned inherently. People's movement is occasionally restricted to ensure safety. Like how the good guys tie up monsters in kiddie books to stop them hurting other people.
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