Nazi-Soviet Pact

If the pact wasn't signed - would WW2 not have happened?

Would it have been delayed?

Would there have been less casualties?

Would it have changed the victors?

How much would it have changed the war and history as we know it?

Famousdebater: Probably delayed slightly. Hitler's main reason for invading Poland was that he thought he could get away with it.

admin: The Nazi-Soviet Pact allowed him to fight the war on one front (without having to fight on the East against Russia too). Without it he'd have had a much harder time dealing with it. If you think that he still would have invaded Poland then what are your answers to the other questions - specifically regarding the outcome. Would the war have been shorter with less casualties? If so, by how much?

Famousdebater: If Hitler was to invade Poland in 1939 without the pact being signed, Britain and France would still declare war most likely and Stalin, seeing this, would prefer to let them fight it out and weaken themselves. Then he could come in and kill off everybody. This was probably his initial plan when he signed the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact. Unfortunately, Germany smashed France and Axis nations conquered most of Europe. In short, the chances are that history would have repeated itself had Hitler invaded Poland without the pact being signed. Yet perhaps Hitler would have done something else fearing a war with the Soviets. I think its pointless to speculate on history. We must look at what did happen instead.

Bolshevik-: If Hitler was to invade Poland in 1939 without the pact being signed, Britain and France would still declare war most likely and Stalin, seeing this, would prefer to let them fight it out and weaken themselves.

The Nazi Soviet pact was signed so that Hitler could invade Poland without having to fight the war on two fronts (ie. against Russia and Britain+France). Britain only agreed to declare war if/when Hitler invaded Poland and since he wouldn't have invaded Poland without Russia on his side it seems as though Britain wouldn't have declared war - at least not as as early as they ended up declaring it. So the point is that if the pact wasn't signed, then the war may not have happened at all or it may not have happened as we know it.

Then he could come in and kill off everybody. This was probably his initial plan when he signed the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact

I disagree. I think he felt insecure having been unable to sign a pact with the reluctant allies. He felt threatened by Germany and needed some assurance. The Nazi-Soviet pact allowed him to be safe from Germany as well as him gaining part of Poland. The allies failed to sign a pact with Russia properly due to their communist beliefs and they also failed to invite them to the Munich Conference. This probably elevated Stalin's insecurity (which he is well known for).

I think its pointless to speculate on history.

Speculating history gives people more of a reason to study it. It also improves analytical thinking as well as understanding different impacts and points to consider. It can be very beneficial, not only to increase historical knowledge but also in general thinking.

Famousdebater: Well, I believe if Hitler didn't invade Poland, then he could have declared war on France instead. Quickly go around the maginot line and blitz France before the country could be fully mobilized.

Bolshevik-: I doubt he'd have done that. I think that Hitler wasn't really expecting war when he went into Poland. He'd received appeasement from Britain, France and the League of Nations by being allowed to re-militarize the Rhineland; achieve Anschluss and unite with Austria; gain the Sudetanland and the rest of Czechoslovakia without war.

So if he decided not to invade Poland I think he'd have tried to invade somewhere else - without declaring war on anywhere like Britain or France.

Famousdebater: Hitler believed France and Britain would probably declare war, he just counted them on not doing anything while most of his forces were invading Poland. France and Britain had signed an alliance and promised to guarantee Poland's independence.

Bolshevik-: France and Britain had signed an alliance and promised to guarantee Poland's independence.

True. But Hitler also knew that Britain and France were bad at upholding their promises. He knew this because he was able to break the Treaty of Versailles on numerous occasions and Britain and France allowed it. Invading Poland could have easily been viewed as another promise they were going to break, by Hitler.

Famousdebater: I think that the annexation of Czechoslovakia changed their mindset enough that they would have declared war on Hitler if he invaded Poland no matter what happened next.

Bolshevik-: I agree. My point is that I'm not sure that Hitler would have known that too. It's easy to look at this in hindsight and say that it was clear that the allies would have declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland but at the time Hitler had been appeased and allowed to get away with so many things that he shouldn't have been allowed to do, I think that the actual declaration of war may not have been something that he thought was going to happen after his invasion of Poland.

Famousdebater: Hitler did leave troops in the west. So clearly he was suspecting the allies might do something.

Bolshevik-: That was merely precautionary. He was cautious with most things he did though. He was cautious when marching into the Rhineland (he supposedly sent in a few soldiers in on bikes first to see if there would be a reaction before re-militarizing it). He didn't just take the Sudetenland and the rest of Czechoslovakia - he was cautious, he asked for things slowly and carefully. That didn't mean he expected war every time.

Famousdebater: Yeah he ordered his troops to pull out of the Rhineland if anything happened. As for Czechoslovakia, he basically agreed with France and Britain to split it between Germany and Hungary. Poland also received two provinces. I mean Hitler didn't want war with Britain or France, he would rather have fought the Soviet Union. But he needed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to ensure he would not fight a war on two fronts.

Bolshevik-: My point is that Hitler wasn't necessarily expecting war after he invaded Poland. I think that the Nazi Soviet pact and his troops left in the West were merely precautionary.

Famousdebater: Invading Poland would have resulted in war either way. Its clear that Hitler wanted nothing less than world domination.

Bolshevik-: He did. But that still doesn't negate my point that Hitler wasn't expecting war when he invaded Poland.

Famousdebater: Doesn't invading Poland in itself result in a war?

Bolshevik-: Yes. But Hitler didn't necessarily know it would.

Famousdebater: Thats about the only thing that you have proven so far. Its impossible to know what an unpredictable and irrational person like Hitler was thinking.