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Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jun 26 2016 1:38 PM
Humans are born as blank slates. You can make them whatever you want by putting them in the right kind of environment. You can mold most people into virtuous human beings if they're raised in an ideal environment. However, the base tendencies of man are the polar opposite of virtuous, which is why you need to control people to make them virtuous. Even in an environment that molds people to be virtuous, there is a base tendency towards backsliding into vice that must be constantly resisted. There may be a sizable minority of people who will naturally be virtuous in a world without environmental controls, but most will turn out to be horrible people in such a world. The majority needs to be controlled, even if the minority doesn't. This is an essential duty of all societies: to mold people into being naturally virtuous so that they can most easily coexist with one another. A society which has the least bad people per capita has succeeded, whereas those with high crime rates have obviously failed. The contemporary United States has failed abysmally.
Whenever in a virtuous society a minority turns out to be unvirtuous (as always happens), they risk spreading their bad ways to everyone else so that in the end most people are bad. That's why bad people must be removed from a good society to keep it good. You don't need to kill them; you can either rehabilitate them or deport them, though in the past execution was the preferred method. Personally I believe that rehabilitation has an extremely low success rate whenever it comes to certain deeply rooted behaviours and tendencies, so deporting bad people is my favoured method.
Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jun 26 2016 1:40 PM
People can only be trusted to live their own lives without outside interference whenever they've been molded well by society.
Bi0Hazard
By Bi0Hazard | Jun 26 2016 2:10 PM
Dassault Papillon: Are you saying there needs to be legislated morality?
Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jun 26 2016 2:12 PM
Bi0Hazard: Not in the United States. You can't impose it on a people who would hate it.
Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 2:25 PM
Dassault Papillon: However, the base tendencies of man are the polar opposite of virtuous, which is why you need to control people to make them virtuous.

The moment you add control, the direction is no longer a virtuous one.

Humanities base tendencies are something that need to be taken pride in. They are the foundation of the human option.

This is an essential duty of all societies: to mold people into being naturally virtuous so that they can most easily coexist with one another.

Humans have always co-existed with each other. Societies are the construction, not the groundwork.

That's why bad people must be removed from a good society to keep it good.

Perhaps the problem is that you are viewing humans as ants in a nest?

People can only be trusted to live their own lives without outside interference whenever they've been molded well by society.

I turned out a lot different than my parents.

Most of my values and beliefs were not influenced by any literature, media, peers, or authority figures. I made observations on the world, and it wasn't until later that I got really into reading metaphysics and philosophy on human nature.

If any society had any say in what I have become, it was the counter society, and I sought out everything I learned of my own accord.
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Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jun 26 2016 2:36 PM
Crow: "The moment you add control, the direction is no longer a virtuous one"
Why does control make something less virtuous? Isn't the end result the same?

"Human base tendencies are something that need to be taken pride in. They are the foundation of the human option."
I agree that people shouldn't be total robots and that they should be individuals. I'm simply advocating that people lose their individualism in the sphere of morality/ethics. In the other spheres people would still be independent. I think you can agree that some choices made by people are horrible; why shouldn't these choices be avoided?

"Humans have always coexisted with each other."
Wherever many people are gathered together, there is by definition a society. Many people gathered together will have a collective will which everyone must abide by.

"Perhaps the problem is that you are viewing humans as ants in a nest?"
What if human societies are exactly like ant colonies?

"I turned out a lot different tan my parents. Most of my values and beliefs were not influenced by...authority figures. I made observations on the world, and it wasn't until later that I got really into reading metaphysics and philosophy on human nature. If any society had any say in what I have become, it was the coutner society, and I sought out everything I learned of my own accord."
You are in the minority then.
Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 2:54 PM
Dassault Papillon: Why does control make something less virtuous? Isn't the end result the same?

If you guide someone without control to a certain conclusion, you will always end up with a different result than the person who uses control to guide someone to a certain conclusion.

Control is a rational concept, and what makes humanity great is completely irrational. You cannot rationalize love, freedom, and compassion.

. I think you can agree that some choices made by people are horrible; why shouldn't these choices be avoided?

Because it is in direct ignorance to our humanity. Perfection cannot exist without imperfection. The pursuit for a perfect society will make us more akin to machines, when in reality we are emotional beings.

The human option has always been preferable.

Many people gathered together will have a collective will which everyone must abide by.

They have done this a lot. What you want is just another society pursuing another dead end set of collective values and principals. I can tell you how that has worked out in the past, and is continuing to work out in the present. I am trying to make you aware of why this cycle keeps repeating itself.

What if human societies are exactly like ant colonies?

Then this would be a completely different story. Unlike ants though, we have the capacity to feel emotions.

You are in the minority then.

Maybe so, but what was missing from my story?

Control. Countless people have tried to control what I believe. When I was in the school system, I was punished many times for what can only be described as hearsay. What was pushed on to me, quite illegally in a couple of instances, never took root.

If I learned anything, it is that control is counter-intuitive, and that it never failed to sicken me to see another group of individuals with clipboards, thinking they can do things better with the same means of control.

If I understand correctly, you just want to be another suit with a clipboard, thinking that your set of values and principles will work out better.
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admin
By admin | Jun 26 2016 4:04 PM
Dassault Papillon: There's a lot of truth to this as brains as surprisingly malleable at a young age, but there are two factors I think you're missing.

First, brains start developing in the womb, before birth. If a mother uses drugs, for example, she can give the baby several forms of brain damage or mental illness.
Second, our genetics can have an influence on our environment too. There are genetic and epigenetic brain diseases for example.

I guess you can only say the US has failed abysmally if you subjectively disagree with its morals. I disagree with much of US cultural morals also. But I suspect most people in the US are fine with most other Americans.
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Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 4:21 PM
admin: First, brains start developing in the womb, before birth. If a mother uses drugs, for example, she can give the baby several forms of brain damage or mental illness.
Second, our genetics can have an influence on our environment too. There are genetic and epigenetic brain diseases for example.


I get really tired of hearing this.

As long as the brain is capable of reasoning, there are no excuses to be made. You aren't one of those fools who always says depression is a chemical imbalance, like it makes a difference?

But I suspect most people in the US are fine with most other Americans

It is in our blood to hate each other unless we are in a war. It is the American way.

Anyways, original American values are not reflected in America. They have been totally betrayed for generations.

That isn't really the problem either. Western values clone each other, absent of culture. I am guessing AI, like me and several hundred million other people, recognize that there are many problems directly at the core of Western society.
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admin
By admin | Jun 26 2016 4:24 PM
Crow: It is a chemical inbalance, and it makes a difference to how it is treated.
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Dassault Papillon
By Dassault Papillon | Jun 26 2016 4:30 PM
admin: Certainly genetics have a role in this. If a mental disability is in play then a modern society should do everything it can to help treat and reverse the effects of such mental illnesses. They should be given as normal lives as possible.
Bi0Hazard
By Bi0Hazard | Jun 26 2016 4:39 PM
Dassault Papillon: Personally I believe that rehabilitation has an extremely low success rate whenever it comes to certain deeply rooted behaviours and tendencies, so deporting bad people is my favoured method.
Or conscript the bad people.
Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 4:42 PM
admin: Depression should be treated the same way every time.

The individual should get over it, because they aren't a goddamn cripple and are not worthy of a pity party. Depression is a choice, and the popularity of the choice is a byproduct of our screwed up society.
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Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 4:44 PM
Dassault Papillon: The only time I would use the word mental illness, is if it were obtained and not genetic.

Anything else is an abnormality, because for the person with the mental condition, their state of mind is normal for them. They don't need to be treated or fixed. At best, they need to be contained from being bothersome.
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admin
By admin | Jun 26 2016 4:45 PM
Crow: Every scientific paper published in a reputable journal in the last 50ish years would disagree with you there.
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Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 5:00 PM
admin: Ultimately a fallacy, and I am not even disputing that depression is a chemical imbalance (scientists say it is a self created one)

It isn't an excuse though, and some people in this field agree with me.



I believe there are close to a dozen books titled "Happiness is a choice," because only an idiot would think it wasn't.
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admin
By admin | Jun 26 2016 5:07 PM
Crow: You don't know how journals work. Who peer-reviewed that book? And what actual neuroscientific credentials does the writer have?

You probably only believe this because it fits your worldview.

I also agree depression is not usually best cured with drugs, but that is not to say that we should outright deny careful scientific research on the topic.
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Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 5:10 PM
admin: ...

What are you arguing? We both agree that depression is chemical. I wouldn't actually say it is an imbalance, because that implies depression is an abnormal state of mind, and it is not.

What I do claim is that depression is a choice, and it is a verifiable fact that we can heavily influence our own state of mind. Are you disputing that or what?
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admin
By admin | Jun 26 2016 5:14 PM
Crow: Yes, in that it is possible to become depressed without choosing to.

Depression is abnormal and should be cured. Sadness, even extreme tragedy, on the other hand, is totally normal. Lots of people conflate the two because they don't understand that depression has a psychiatric definition.
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Crow
By Crow | Jun 26 2016 5:21 PM
admin: The definition of depression I know is a synonym for despondency, which is a state of having little hope or willpower.

It is definitely not abnormal. If you do not engage and embrace depressive states, you will never learn how to live fully in any other state of being.
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