Tibet

Figured this is a place America has less of a vested interest in than Israel, so it might be somewhat easier to discuss.

Do you think Tibet should be, well, not part of China?

admin: The Tibetan people should be the ones who decide on this. Ethnic Tibetans, that is.

Dassault Papillon: I think it's a pretty well established fact that most of them want independance.

admin: In that case yes, they should be independent.

Quick question:
USA: Independence
Commonwealth: Independance
Is that the way it generally goes?

admin: Uh, just so you know, you seem to be the most biased about Israel.

I have been pretty objective, but you have become a feedhole for propaganda.

Sure, give them independence or whatever. Why not?

Dassault Papillon: Nah, the world's less fragmented than it used to be.

Blackflag: If you claim you're the least biased, why are you making subjective statements like claiming most Palestinians have "probably" thrown a rock at Israel?

This is Orwellianism at its finest. You're defining my viewpoint as propaganda while claiming your own as unbiased fact. It's ridiculous.

Blackflag: I, for one, think they're better off in most respects under China.

The only objective issues are a loss of culture, which has already been mostly mitigated by the Tibetians themselves and doesn't inherently require independance, only Chinese political reform.

admin: That said, I would support self-determination as a stronger moral value than "what's best for them", in the same way as I uphold democracy over what's best for me.

Regardless of whether or not it merits death or if it even really merits anything at all, most Palestinian boys and men probably do hate Israel and they likely do throw or have thrown rocks at stuff like soldiers, tanks, and that wall (I forgot the name of it). The Palestinians have a "we must wage a war of liberation" mindset. It may or may not be justified, but this much is pretty much fact.

Dassault Papillon: No. For one, saying it's "pretty much fact" that all of a class of people believe in exactly the same mindset is insane. It would be like me judging all Americans on the basis that some of them have engaged in mass shootings.

Let's keep this thread on the topic of tibet though. Most tibetans do want independance. Arguably, there has been much retaliation to that by the Chinese government. So that's worth bearing in mind, too. The situation is non-unique.

why are you making subjective statements like claiming most Palestinians have "probably" thrown a rock at Israel?
Yeah, and where did I ever make that statement?

I think you are confusing your patrons.

I, for one, think they're better off in most respects under China.
As always, it takes a lot to crack your authoritarian feedhole mind.

The only objective issues are a loss of culture, which has already been mostly mitigated by the Tibetians themselves and doesn't inherently require independance, only Chinese political reform.
But overall a form of independence would be beneficial. Tibetan taxes do not go to Tibetans. They go to the people in China. Tibetan resources are not gathered by Tibetans. They are gathered by people from China.

Other reasons

- China has viciously persecuted Tibetans
- China has removed much of the ancient ways of governance and religious practice in Tibet
- China is not respecting popular sovereignty
- China does not have a legal claim to Tibetan lands
- China is an oppresive proletarian dictatorship

It seems pretty clear cut. This is the third time on this site you have expressed pro imperialist views.

Blackflag: Tibet is an autonomous region. That means all their taxes are only reinvested in that region. Of course, thanks to Chinese rule, resettlement into Tibet of Han etc is rampant, but the thing about taxes is a fallacy, it all goes directly to "people in tibet". Similar with resources, though honestly, Tibet has very few resources anyway.

Given that I did say I think a democratic self-determinative mandate should be the overriding principle, I'm not sure how this qualifies as pro-imperialist.

admin: Tibet is an autonomous region.

You are aware that the most powerful office position in Tibet is elected by the CCP?

That means all their taxes are only reinvested in that region

Not true. There are several federal level taxes that apply to Tibetans, just like they apply to everyone else living in China.

Tibet has very few resources anyway.

Tibet is incredibly resource rich. It is in a similar situation with Greenland and Antarctica. The technology to effectively mine resources just does not exist in that part of the world.

Mineral resources are what drove the Chinese to invade in the first place.

I'm not sure how this qualifies as pro-imperialist.

Let me explain.

You have admitted that the majority of Tibetans want independence. You do not want them to have independence. Your views are in support of imperialism.

Imperialism is not mutually exclusive with authoritarianism jssyk

Blackflag: You do not want them to have independence.
Actually I said the exact opposite. I think they should have independence, even though that is not in their interest.

You are aware that the most powerful office position in Tibet is elected by the CCP?
You are aware that just because they are not a democracy does not prevent them from being an autonomous region?

It is in a similar situation with Greenland and Antarctica. The technology to effectively mine resources just does not exist in that part of the world.
The technology does exist in both of those cases though. In the case of Greenland, resources ARE being mined extensively. Antarctica is only not being mined because it is protected by treaty.

Mineral resources are what drove the Chinese to invade in the first place.
You really don't want me to make another long history post here... the situation isn't that simple...