EDEB8 - Ultimate Online Debating
About Us   Debate    Judge   Forum

A cry of desperation

< Return to subforum
Page: 12Most Recent
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 3:26 PM
This site is so dead, I don't even know why I keep logging in. Probably out of routine.

I want to boost my activity levels here, but the site is broken without people, and I am bored as hell debating admin, bad paragraph debaters, and ppl who I know are going to forfeit.

This site is good, but so far @admin has failed completely to get new members, and I know why. He expects people to come based solely on word of mouth, but that isn't how the world works.

This is a cry of desperation. Please do something to liven up the site, and do it quick. I fear Edeb8.com is just going to become another tombstone on the internet.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 3:28 PM
In all honesty I think the best thing for Edeb8 would be a fresh start. Admin has proven himself to have created the best debating system on the internet, but Edeb8 in particular is just a disorganized blob of ideas and features that don't go together.

I think if admin were to get a new domain, rename the site to something better than Edeb8, and copied over his code from this site over to a new one, this site would have a second chance at restoring itself.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 3:34 PM
I also know it sucks to eliminate something you have worked really hard on. I've written a 10 page essay on Nationalist China just to erase it off my computer on accident, and it sucks, but the second try was better than the first. This is usually the case.

If admin were to start transfering his code and perfecting a new site based on a simpler model focused mostly on debating, I am sure he would produce a better website than the first. Admin could also psyche people up about the project on DDO, ask people for ideas on what they want to see in a debating site, open up a paypal for donations, and relaunch the site with high initial membership from all the people checking it out.

admin
By admin | Jul 23 2015 4:54 PM
Blackflag: Sure. I'm doing the WODC right now. What are YOU doing to "liven up the site?" Heck, when's the last time you even finished a debate?

Believe it or not, in the last 30 days, almost 2,000 unique people have been on edeb8. Each spent an average of 26 minutes, 3 seconds on the site. They generated over 11,000 pageviews. It's not bad. Now it's true, edeb8 still has a 66% bounce rate, and that's a problem. It's the highest our bounce rate has ever been. User engagement reached a peak during October 2014. I find pageviews correlates best to overall observed activity on the site. This is a week-by-week graph.



So basically, this is not the worst we've been in. We've had little phases, ups and downs. But it's not that edeb8 isn't getting attention and interest. These are the facts we're dealing with.

If you want to copy the site over to a new domain with a "better name", be my guest. I'll let you have the code, and you can try to psyche people up. I'll stay right here on edeb8.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 5:37 PM
Sure. I'm doing the WODC right now. What are YOU doing to "liven up the site?"
I am being an active member. It is the most I care to do without administrative powers.

You are the administrator, the future of your site is in your hands.

Believe it or not, in the last 30 days, almost 2,000 unique people have been on edeb8. Each spent an average of 26 minutes, 3 seconds on the site. They generated over 11,000 pageviews. It's not bad. Now it's true, edeb8 still has a 66% bounce rate, and that's a problem. It's the highest our bounce rate has ever been. User engagement reached a peak during October 2014. I find pageviews correlates best to overall observed activity on the site. This is a week-by-week graph.
I think this is actually bad news, let met explain. We have had over 2000 unique IP's over the course of one month visit Edeb8, but only about 10 people have joined the site.

That means that you have a conversion rate of 0.5%. A healthy site would be converting at least 20% of everyone who visits.

Heck, when's the last time you even finished a debate?
Also part of the problem. I'm not physched about debating here anymore, much like the other people who have chose DDO over us.

So basically, this is not the worst we've been in. We've had little phases, ups and downs. But it's not that edeb8 isn't getting attention and interest. These are the facts we're dealing with.
Yes, but that is the equivalent to having the best slice of a terrible cake. The site is absolutely great in my opinion, I've always told you that.

I agree that the site attracts attention, but not interest, because if the site attracted interest, we wouldn't have so few members relative to the amount of people who visit Edeb8.com

If you want to copy the site over to a new domain with a "better name", be my guest. I'll let you have the code, and you can try to psyche people up. I'll stay right here on edeb8.
Nah, I don't think that is my kind of thing, but I think you should do it.

Like I said earlier, the site has become a very large disorganized collection of various good and bad features, none of which are implemented correctly, and many of which are incompatible with the sites purpose.

I think the best thing you can do is revitalize the site by starting from scratch on the basic design and layout. You have already written the code and learned how to fix all the bugs you have already dealth with, and anyone can confirm that you have proven the debating format to be successful.

Why not just take a good product and give it a new spin. Plenty of people change the names of their sites and businesses without changing much of the actual service. It is quite effective, and you know, I think you might even enjoy it.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 5:40 PM
If you don't mid, I would like to ask some people on DDO what they would think of you copying the Edeb8 format and code into a new fresher site. With your permission of course.

I think if you seen some of the comments you might be more open to the idea.
admin
By admin | Jul 23 2015 6:03 PM
Blackflag: It is the most I care to do without administrative powers.
Communities in general are built by member involvement, not zealous moderation.

You are the administrator, the future of your site is in your hands.
No. It is in OUR hands. We need to take collective responsibility for this community if it is ever to work.

We have had over 2000 unique IP's over the course of one month visit Edeb8, but only about 10 people have joined the site. That means that you have a conversion rate of 0.5%. A healthy site would be converting at least 20% of everyone who visits.
So this is where the bounce rate becomes important. Of those 2000, only about 600 stayed around to look at more than a page. We've actually had 44 new members in the last 30 days, not 10. So our conversion rate over 7%, or about 2.2% if you count bouncing members. Here are all their names, in fact:

Totok Wahyu
Kvs Pradeep
Jewelz
Asel Helitha
Mackayla Coley
Wayne Huff
sharathkalyan
Alex Reed
Mafabulous
sparklepenguin
Solomon DE Chelsea
Kipper
jessicarobins
JeanPhillips
SaraHarris
JulieGreen
MichelleTurner
MarilynBrooks
JenniferWood
CherylJames
RosePerry
RubyLewis
TheresaLopez
DianaMorris
AnnieBell
EvelynHughes
AnneRobinson
CarolThompson
WandaWard
ShirleyGarcia
PaulaAllen
DianeSmith
PatriciaCook
Take It Lightly
Michael Stewart
renedunne88
Emily778
Fulgentian
Salman Shishir
Ishan Shukla
lsw000001
Pranesh Sridharan
Ronnie Rogers
San Ran

I don't think 20% is ideal. We're a niche site, not out for the mass market like most debate sites.

I'm not physched about debating here anymore
Sure, but your suggested solution is to reduce the features of the site. I mean, come on. You're not psyched about debating because you use parts of the site you shouldn't? No new domain would help that.

Nah, I don't think that is my kind of thing, but I think you should do it.
People have told me this from day 1. It's the one thing I simply don't believe. I always have offered others the chance to try on their own. Nobody has ever taken me up on my offer.

Like I said earlier, the site has become a very large disorganized collection of various good and bad features, none of which are implemented correctly, and many of which are incompatible with the sites purpose.
You are literally the only member who says this. Or has ever said this, for that matter.

I think the best thing you can do is revitalize the site by starting from scratch on the basic design and layout.
This site is 3 years of solid development. Starting from scratch won't accelerate anything and will be a total waste of time. I think it would be far more effective to give the whole site a new design or layout. Edeb8 has changed its style before several times, and it's generally helped.

With your permission of course.
You don't need my permission. I don't sanction a new name in the slightest.

If you want to copy the code to a new fresher site, and believe there is interest, you would take me up on my offer.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 6:22 PM
Communities in general are built by member involvement, not zealous moderation.

No one said they were, but as an administrator, you have to provide an ample framework if you expect people to want to be involved in the site.

No. It is in OUR hands. We need to take collective responsibility for this community if it is ever to work.

We can only do so much. You are the administrator, the decisions lie in your hands only. I try to give you advice, but you end up arguing it rather than taking it into consideration, and then shifting the blame to your member base when they start to wonder why the site is so dead.

about 2.2% if you count bouncing members.
Okay, but 2.2% is still an incredibly poor number. You need 20% conversion in order for the site to function properly. To top things off, most of the people who join never make a single interaction with the site and their accounts lie dormant.

Sure, but your suggested solution is to reduce the features of the site. I mean, come on. You're not psyched about debating because you use parts of the site you shouldn't? No new domain would help that.

You don't understand. The problem isn't that I get distracted from debating. The problem is that the site has distracted itself from debating. The layout of this site and navigation is a nightmare, and 90% of the features on the site aren't what makes Edeb8 great. Prove that you can attract members on the debating aspect alone before you expand it to include all this cobweb social nonsense.

You are literally the only member who says this. Or has ever said this, for that matter.
I am one of five people who still regularly uses this site. I doubt you hear much feedback at all.

This site is 3 years of solid development. Starting from scratch won't accelerate anything and will be a total waste of time. I think it would be far more effective to give the whole site a new design or layout. Edeb8 has changed its style before several times, and it's generally helped.
I disagree, and you aren't starting from scratch per say. You are just transferring your code to a new domain. You are giving the site a new name, a new design, and a simpler format. In general, it is the same site but with a new beginning that will attract initial attention and interest when you first launch it, kind of like how the height of Edeb8 was when you first launched the site.

You don't need my permission. I don't sanction a new name in the slightest.
I really wish you would start reading what I am writing before you respond.

I was asking whether or not I could propose what I am saying here to the people on DDO, and question them on whether it would be a good idea, or would it motivate them to give the site a second chance.

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 6:28 PM
If you sent me the debate code though, I would see what I could do with it.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 7:08 PM
Okay, so I took 4 minutes and made this, and I know the white on black on white thing looks really ugly, but my point is in the format and not the design.



- The new name sounds more professional and clearly signifies that it is a debating site

- The navigation is simple and the front page is underwhelming

- The black and white colors look more professional and present the site as a serious debating site. It also gives off an intellectual vibe.

- All the navigational links are on the homepage, making the site exceptionally easy to navigate

- It clearly seperates the forums side from the debating side, which is an improvement considering 90% of the people coming here were expecting forum interaction and not debating

Yes, the design is ugly, but the format is a lot better. All you need to do is give the site a fresh vibe, minimize the amount of features, and stick with the things that make Edeb8 a good debating site. All the social stuff is nonsense that I can find on social sites. Presenting the site in a more professional debating demeanor will attract people who are looking for intellectual and scholarly debate.

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 7:15 PM
Okay a little better. It looks kind of boring so I would add a background picture and maybe not use that super light blue, but the color tool is really difficult to use

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 7:32 PM




I'm not a good designer, but I know that the site would be much better if you toned things done everywhere
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 7:33 PM
Ignore those last two, they're very bad.
admin
By admin | Jul 23 2015 7:49 PM
Blackflag: you have to provide an ample framework if you expect people to want to be involved in the site.
So your argument is that edeb8 is not ample?

you end up arguing it rather than taking it into consideration
I take everything into consideration. That's why I made the feature request page. Of course I argue it, to see if it's a good idea or not.

shifting the blame to your member base
It's not so much shifting as sharing the blame. I get annoyed by people who vaguely tell me to "do more" for edeb8, and aren't willing to contribute more themselves unless I give them admin powers or something.

To top things off, most of the people who join never make a single interaction with the site and their accounts lie dormant.
The way I see it, THIS is our real problem. Too many members never even do a single debate. User acquisition is fine, it's engagement that is lacking. Too many members would grind the site to a halt and force us to move to a better server.

I am one of five people who still regularly uses this site. I doubt you hear much feedback at all.
I've been hearing feedback for years, from dozens of members. I'm used to all this. Heck, I've literally heard more people say "ban Stag" then "remove features".

the height of Edeb8 was when you first launched the site.
In the first day, I had to fix over 125 individual bugs. Almost every aspect of edeb8 was broken when it launched.

It's easy to become nostalgic over the "good old days". I remember how hard it was in the beginning keeping the site together. Everything was constantly bugging out.

I really wish you would start reading what I am writing before you respond.
I do, and I stand by what I responded. First, that you don't need my permission. And second, that I don't sanction it (in case you are confused by this second part, I believe me giving you permission would be seen by some as the equivalent of me sanctioning it).

If you sent me the debate code though, I would see what I could do with it.
The code is VERY strongly linked in with the profile code etc. Would be nigh impossible to separate. Happy to PM you the whole code and explain everything via a PM though.

The new name sounds more professional and clearly signifies that it is a debating site
It also costs over $10,000.

The navigation is simple and the front page is underwhelming
Classic sign of a dormant site.

The black and white colors look more professional and present the site as a serious debating site. It also gives off an intellectual vibe.
Change your profile to a white background with a black header. There, you've now turned edeb8 into the convinceme or DDO clone you want it to be in terms of appearance. Personally, I think edeb8 looks more serious than both. More importantly, it's different.

All the navigational links are on the homepage, making the site exceptionally easy to navigate
Well yeah, because you've removed 90% of the site. All the main ones anyway.

It clearly seperates the forums side from the debating side
Our current site does this exact same thing. Literally the ONLY difference you showed is the addition of the word "online" to debate and "discussion" to forums.

All the social stuff is nonsense that I can find on social sites.
Then just ignore it... it's not hard.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 9:04 PM
So your argument is that edeb8 is not ample?
The core debating features are solid. Everything else not so much.

It's not so much shifting as sharing the blame. I get annoyed by people who vaguely tell me to "do more" for edeb8, and aren't willing to contribute more themselves unless I give them admin powers or something.
I don't want admin powers. And I am telling you to do more for the site, not because you have an obligation to do it for me, but because I have an honest feeling that my ideas will benefit you as well.

The way I see it, THIS is our real problem. Too many members never even do a single debate. User acquisition is fine, it's engagement that is lacking. Too many members would grind the site to a halt and force us to move to a better server.
Yes, this is a problem, and I think the current site isn't attracting debaters. Agreed?

It's easy to become nostalgic over the "good old days". I remember how hard it was in the beginning keeping the site together. Everything was constantly bugging out.
But you perfected your code and have memories of the errors you made the first time, right?

The code is VERY strongly linked in with the profile code etc. Would be nigh impossible to separate. Happy to PM you the whole code and explain everything via a PM though.
Hold on to that thought, because I have a somewhat plausible idea that I haven't fully worked out.

It also costs over $10,000.
That is pretty expensive for a domain. What if you kept the domain name, but promoted the sites name as E Debate or Online Debate. That would improve search engine optimization as well.

Classic sign of a dormant site.

I disagree. Front pages should be simple by nature, and they should be the source of navigation to every part of the site. The front page is really complex and loaded. It just makes getting accomodated with the site that much harder.

Change your profile to a white background with a black header. There, you've now turned edeb8 into the convinceme or DDO clone you want it to be in terms of appearance. Personally, I think edeb8 looks more serious than both. More importantly, it's different.


Okay, I do concede that it looks a lot like DDO's logo. I do think DDO's logo looks more seriously though with the black and orange.

Well yeah, because you've removed 90% of the site. All the main ones anyway.
No, I think I had them all there. The only links I ignored were the ones like Force Desktop, Who's Online, and the Leaderboards.

Our current site does this exact same thing. Literally the ONLY difference you showed is the addition of the word "online" to debate and "discussion" to forums.
Okay, maybe there isn't much of a difference.

Back to the classics though, the site would be better with four forums. Edeb8.com, Debate Discussion, Community, Other
Asking people both here and on DDO, there was overwhelming support for the idea opposed to the large but mostly neglected number of forums we have.

Then just ignore it... it's not hard.
That's not the point. It can actually be a turn off when a site offers a lot of features that aren't primarily helpful to the people the site was originally trying to market.

I would just tone down on the social aspect. I was willing to compromise on groups if you reduced the forums, but in a perfect world this site would be as is without the large forums and groups.

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 9:10 PM
Overall I think most of the site is a lot cleaner since your last redesign, when you added the debate box and more tabs on the profile.

The three things I still think look clunky and overloaded are the Home Page, the Forums, and the Edeb8.com logged in home page (mostly because of the friend activity feed, which should be delivered neater)

I think the general consensus is still pretty high that the sites default color scheme is unattractive, and I wouldn't be surprised if people still didn't like the homepage. To be honest, I don't get the landscape photo on the homepage. This is a debate site, so maybe world flags or podiums?
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 9:15 PM
Btw, putting grey and orange next to each other is generally a bad idea. They aren't compatible color wise. Soft colors are probably best for a default color scheme, considering DDO has already taken Black and Orange.

?t=1433159605633&width=500&height=370

I think Blue on White would be a good color scheme. I know marketing branches often use specific color combinations because they promote subliminal messages kind of. For example, red is often associated with masculinity and power.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 9:17 PM
Okay, here is an idea. What if you put the friend activity feed in a box, and allowed a member to scroll down through past feeds. That way you could reduce the amount of space the Activity Feed actually takes.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 23 2015 9:26 PM
@admin - I don't think that list of names you provided is accurate, because none of them turned up in search.

I am actually agreeing with you on the conversion rate. 2.5% conversion isn't bad when your actually recieving 43 members, but only a fraction of those members will start a debate, and an even smaller fraction will finish a debate.

I think we should make a goal to raise the conversion rate to 5%, thereby increasing the chances we will attract a debate, and make a goal to get at least 20% of all members that sign up to do a debate.

One proposal I made that failed to gain any negative or positive attention, was my proposal to make it a requirement to finish one debate before being allowed access to the sites social features. This works on other sites in my experience, although they obviously are not debate sites.
admin
By admin | Jul 23 2015 10:42 PM
Blackflag: Everything else not so much.
Then edeb8 is ample.

I have an honest feeling that my ideas will benefit you as well.
I don't. Put your actions where your mouth is. If your ideas are so great, put them on the feature tracker. Several times you've said you'd get total support for an idea, and several times I have proven you wrong.

I think the current site isn't attracting debaters. Agreed?
No.

But you perfected your code and have memories of the errors you made the first time, right?
I doubt the edeb8 code is perfect. In fact there's bugs that I know of right now. It's just a normal feature of agile development to undergo continuous improvement and finish things then forget about them.

That is pretty expensive for a domain.
Yeah. The vast majority of domain names related to debate were bought up a long time ago by investors who will only sell for a giant price. edeb8 was convenient because using the 8 both shortened it, made it memorable, and made it available, since few such investors think in terms of numbers standing for letters.

That would improve search engine optimization as well.
Differing domain and site names to help seo? Quite the opposite. I've always found the more closely the domain links to site titles, the stronger a site ranks overall.

The only links I ignored were the ones like Force Desktop, Who's Online, and the Leaderboards.
Judge, for example? Having that as a major link was a conscious decision to encourage judging.

Asking people both here and on DDO, there was overwhelming support for the idea opposed to the large but mostly neglected number of forums we have.
I have a feature tracker that proves otherwise.

I was willing to compromise on groups if you reduced the forums
I was willing to reduce the forums if people moved over to groups like you predicted. They didn't.

Overall I think most of the site is a lot cleaner since your last redesign, when you added the debate box and more tabs on the profile.
And the site design is something that's definitely being worked on...

What if you put the friend activity feed in a box, and allowed a member to scroll down through past feeds.
I think this idea is way more constructive than anything else. Put it on the tracker, I'll +1 it.

One proposal I made that failed to gain any negative or positive attention, was my proposal to make it a requirement to finish one debate before being allowed access to the sites social features.
There's merits and problems with this idea. It's worth talking about in a new thread.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Page: 12Most Recent