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Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:05 AM
Honest question: then why are you here?
He probably just wants some good forum discussions. That was made pretty clear at least to me.
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admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:07 AM
Blackflag: people judging biased due to the influence the number has on their thinking.
I think you're the only one :)
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:08 AM
admin: I think you're the only one :)
That can't be true because Chuz Life just made the same complaint.
I've seen this happen dozens of times on DDO. Don't be daft.
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Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:08 AM
admin: Actually considering what you just stated, I think that is the most viable way. Make an account on DDO named "Edb8 Admin" or something. Have people that wish to have their scores transferred over here message you and check it on a bi daily or weekly basis with on updated per week. Make them include the link to their profile or an additional information that takes to verify their account.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:08 AM
Blackflag: But there's, like, way better forum communities on the net. Edeb8 is pretty much as specialized a formal debate community as you can get.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:09 AM
Blackflag: Chuz Life hasn't voted, so they can't be voting biased due to Elo scores.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:11 AM
Nope, I absolutely hate @Mikal 's proposal. It is bad enough we have ELO on Edeb8, the last thing I want is DDO's jacked up mess of a scoring system transferred over to our site. I don't think ELO has ever provided an accurate showing of anyone's actual talent. DDO's ELO is the issue conflated even more.

But there's, like, way better forum communities on the net. Edeb8 is pretty much as specialized a formal debate community as you can get.
Maybe that is why he wants to leave...
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Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:12 AM
Just a notation, to the people attacking the elo system, you are attacking the one that thing drives a majority of people to debate. Debating for the purpose of knowledge is one thing, but people can do it anywhere. You can discuss things on facebook or redit, but an elo system takes thing to a different level. Debate is a competition, just like any other sport. Assigning a ranking system to a sport is done in almost every single sport. It's a way to compare who debates the best, who debates the most, who is good at what topics etc. Sports are a game and competitive in ways, and debate is no different. An elo system is meant for ranking, and to be frank if you want to debate without getting a debate judged on, the forums are probably the best bet. A purpose of a debate is to be scored, debate goes hand in hand with judges, which goes hand in hand win a win loss record.

The value of this site is that it is geared to formal debate, and that larz is actually active and willing to listen to ideas. The site has infinite potential.If you are willing to honor scores from other sites, you can drive a mass crowd to here and the appeal to join increases. Then the site is less niche, and more open to the public. Then your steps to being the best debating website are closer to being achieved .

Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:14 AM
admin: You're pretty stubborn whenever this debate rebirths. Chuz Life, like me, made the complaint that it is harder to win a debate against someone with high elo, because new judges or those judges which don't have much independent thinking capability are slanted towards judging in favor of the guy with the higher score.

I was pretty good about not judging in anyone's favor due to popularity bias, and I'm sure Chuz Life is the same. I do have a problem when other people's popularity bias affect my chances of winning a debate.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:17 AM
Blackflag: Your confusing this site with DDO. More popular users "are" more likely to get views sure, but you have a site with an active admin that can do whatever he wants. It's easy to draft a valid RFD criteria and have him remove votes that are blatant vote bombs, and it's really easy to define.The fact that Chuz is complaining about RFDs is a bit ironic though, as his voting rights was removed almost permanently for blatantly voting on abortion topics and only voting for pro nearly 100 percent of the time.

I'm not saying the critique does not validity, but this is the pot calling the kettle black. You reform the system, and set up a draft for how RFDS should be written, not remove the system entirely.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:18 AM
Blackflag: I agree to a point, and DDO's Elo issues are one of the reasons I think Edeb8's system is superior. This being said:
1. Elo is EASILY IGNORABLE and only appears in one small spot on a user's profile.
2. Elo is STATISTICALLY ACCURATE just like a win/loss ratio, and isn't designed to measure talent.
3. Elo is FAIR and DIFFICULT TO MANIPULATE without manipulating the debates themselves.

Edeb8's systems will of course remain, but if somebody wants to verify who they are/were on DDO, I can indeed see some merit to that.
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I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:19 AM
Just a notation, to the people attacking the elo system, you are attacking the one that thing drives a majority of people to debate. Debating for the purpose of knowledge is one thing, but people can do it anywhere.
If ELO is what is motivating people to debate here, then we are attracting the wrong sort of people for our site. We want people who like debating more than winning and ego trips.

I have no problem with friendly competition and tests of skill, but ELO using any formula provides a very distorted reality of someone's skill, and it causes several adversities which I have brought up in past threads.

I suggest that we keep the win ratio and force people to judge the quality of debaters independently by reading their debates over a debaters arbitrary ELO score.
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admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:19 AM
Blackflag: I do have a problem when other people's popularity bias affect my chances of winning a debate.
I strongly agree with this. I just don't believe anyone is popular due to an Elo rating.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Chuz Life
By Chuz Life | May 26 2015 9:22 AM
admin: That's on an attack on Elo scores though, that's an attack on debate pretty specifically.

Do you agree or disagree that elo scores are completely subjective when compared to actual wins and losses in something like a game of chess?

The things you mention are things edeb8 already controls for, so I'm glad about that. :)

You say this as you are flirting with the idea of incorporating the DDO's elo scores her on this site. In doing so, you undermine your own credibility.

Honest question: then why are you here?

I came here hoping for a better (than DDO) forum for debate. . . so far, I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed. Not that you haven't made a great effort and some improvements over that other place. You have.

But many of the same trolls and ego driven narcissist from ddo have now found there way here and instead of putting up some barriers and rules to set your site apart from all that BS. . . . You are looking for ways (and advice from one of the biggest manipulators) instead.

Speaking only for myself, take it for what it's worth. . . . the more you embrace the bootlickers you've been courting lately. . . the more you are pushing away the more principled members like me.
The Supreme Court needs to explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under one law but not under any others.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:24 AM
Blackflag: My dude, you are not just questing elo but any sports criteria in ways. What about judging in the Olympics, in gymnastics , or any event that requires judging. People can try to remove personal bias with judging, and people often participate in sports for fun. You can easily debate for personal preference and just to learn, but quite a few people consider it a competition and value winning and losing. Sports in general go hand in hand with that. I'm simply saying appeal to both sides, as debate is a sport that goes hand in hand with judging. If you debate in real life, you will win or lose and you will be judged for it. Just setting up a criteria for win loss does not change that.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:25 AM
Elo is EASILY IGNORABLE and only appears in one small spot on a user's profile.
Different people treat different things with varying levels of importance. That ELO score can still be made into a big deal, and it often is made into a big deal at that.

Elo is STATISTICALLY ACCURATE just like a win/loss ratio, and isn't designed to measure talent.
If it isn't to measure talent then what is it for and why do we need it?

3. Elo is FAIR and DIFFICULT TO MANIPULATE without manipulating the debates themselves.
I reject this premise. ELO can be distorted in many ways. Such as debating people who forfeit a lot (something Stalin did to break the DDO elo system, god bless his soul)
This is still ignoring the basic problem that those with a higher ELO score are more likely to win due to others subjective popularity biases, which is an example of manipulating the system.

Edeb8's systems will of course remain, but if somebody wants to verify who they are/were on DDO, I can indeed see some merit to that.
It is good that we are having a discussion on the matter, but I feel implementing something like this would be a backstab to your longterm core member base. It is the sort of thing which would drive me away from the site.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:28 AM
My dude, you are not just questing elo but any sports criteria in ways. What about judging in the Olympics, in gymnastics , or any event that requires judging. People can try to remove personal bias with judging, and people often participate in sports for fun. You can easily debate for personal preference and just to learn, but quite a few people consider it a competition and value winning and losing. Sports in general go hand in hand with that. I'm simply saying appeal to both sides, as debate is a sport that goes hand in hand with judging. If you debate in real life, you will win or lose and you will be judged for it. Just setting up a criteria for win loss does not change that.
@Mikal Nah, I have no problem with judging. It is fundamental to the debating process. In sports we rarely see an index rating of how good a player is on a number scale, because any number would indeed be heavily misleading and subject to much debate and controversy. I want to keep wins, losses, and win/loss ration. I do not want to see ELO hanging around on the site.
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 9:31 AM
Blackflag: That's fair enough, but keep in mind if you keep wins and losses, what is the difference in calculating the wins and losses. If a mass crowd were to "ever" come to the site, they would internally judging who is the best by a win loss record anyway. Elo is just a system to keep score, that is all it is. Is there a fundamental concept of elitism that can come along with it? Yes, but that is true with simply just wins and losses, or just having a core user base on the site. If you removed elo all together, DDO would still have elitism. If you went to redit forums, it has elitism. Any site with a core base, any game with better players, and any sport will always have elitism. It's a principle of life, and one that we can discourage, but don't confuse correlation with causation and equate it directly with an elo system

Have that system can directly benefit the site positively if you do it in the right way.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:31 AM
@admin - I understand the sentiments of Chuz Life. A lot of people came here from DDO because they were ostracized from that community. It is admirable, but with their migration came new internal conflicts and challenges. You haven't been very responsive or adaptable in regards to needing change.

It is easy to convince you to add something to the site, but hard to change the way you think in regards to how you should administrate the site and shape it.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:36 AM
That's fair enough, but keep in mind if you keep wins and losses, what is the difference in calculating the wins and losses. If a mass crowd were to "ever" come to the site, they would internally judging who is the best by a win loss record anyway. Elo is just a system to keep score, that is all it is. Is there a fundamental concept of elitism that can come along with it? Yes, but that is true with simply just wins and losses, or just having a core user base on the site. If you removed elo all together, DDO would still have elitism. If you went to redit forums, it has elitism. Any site with a core base, any game with better players, and any sport will always have elitism. It's a principle of life, and one that we can discourage, but don't confuse correlation with causation and equate it directly with an elo system

@Mikal - Win/Loss rations generally are less stigmatic. ELO is a measurement of total skill (an inaccurate measurement). Win/Loss rations do not say much about skill. Someone could have a 50% Win/Loss Ration and still have a good ELO.

It is good to accept that there is a problem. To accept the problem and then declare said problem unfixable isn't very good though. We cannot fix elitism, but we can minimize the level elitism has over this site.
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