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admin
By admin | May 24 2015 7:05 PM
Chuz Life: If you've never had a debate experience, you don't know if you would enjoy it.

This being said, I am curious about your "observations." What exactly is making you conclude, if not your experience, that edeb8 is turning into an elitist popularity contest?
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 24 2015 7:07 PM
I second that motion. Don't knock it till you try it
ButterCatx
By ButterCatx | May 25 2015 2:48 AM
admin: Sorta yeah, that way I can read more messages at the same time. They would still be vertical but with less filler space.
"I am not wise, I am a joker" - Floki
"A warrior does not show his heart until the axe reveals it." - Floki
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 3:53 AM
admin: Sorry, I should have stated this better. I meant take wins from other websites and real life competition and honor the wins and losses on here. You take away the appeal to other websites and still have your sites functionality in comparison. Basically people like bluesteel, YYW, and other good debaters, that have invested years and years in DDO keep their records, and you get the user base that requires to make your site operational.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 6:51 AM
Mikal: Is there anyway you (or anyone else) can think of for edeb8 to verify which DDO user a given Edeb8 member might be? I kinda wouldn't trust self-reporting for that if we integrated it into the site officially.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 7:16 AM
admin: If you actually agree to honor wins from other sites and real life debates, I will personally pledge to help you integrate it and i'll even help you draw online traffic for free. I got something I can use at work to work with it on
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 7:22 AM
admin: Just to clarify what I'm saying. If whiteflame wanted to transfer site per say. You would add his DDO wins and losses, Edb8 wins and losses, and real life wins and losses and make sure they are all valid and add it into his profiles elo count. If you can do that and honor the elo so people don't lose their effort, I will help you out personally. I can't promise I can do alot, but I can help you generate some organic hits.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 7:34 AM
Mikal: I was thinking maybe it could be set up separately on the new "debate profile" section of the profile - like, "verified record" from DDO (or possibly other sites). But I wouldn't pledge such a thing unless I knew a very solid verification mechanism exists, and I'm not at all convinced that it does. In fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

The problem with simply adding it is that edeb8 counts things differently. For example there are no tied debates on edeb8, and there are tied debates on DDO. Such things of course also influence things like Elo scores, and DDO's "Elo" system works off a different basis+formula to Edeb8's. Even with a weighted average, the difference in the start scores and standard deviations of DDO's system is too much. I'd have to think if there's a way we can integrate this with things like leaderboards or debate elo requirements, but I think there is.

The bottom line is: I'm happy to verify scores and display them on edeb8 in such a way that members' efforts are not wasted, but don't think it's actually possible.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 7:41 AM
My advice, what you said is not a bad idea. Split the profile up into sections. If someone comes in from a different website, honor the elo from that website and just post the "score". Websites are easy to verify because you can actually check the wins, losses, and elo.

Real life you would have to have them prove it, which is subjective to them actually being able to document it. If you are down to implement it, I will try and help you. I'm actually confident this will help your site grow. I'll also help with a few other things if you implement it..

(1) I agree with the fact, that you can't combine the scores. Point taken, but I think you cold do what you set with a section under elo that reflects elo scores, and wins in different areas other than edb8

(2) If you do it, i'll help you achieve it.
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 7:48 AM
Mikal: Sounds good. If you do find or think of a possible way to validate DDO users, please let me know. This is basically the only obstacle - everything else is pretty easy.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 7:54 AM
admin: Easiest way to do it is to straight copy the elo

Set a section below Edb8 elo and have it where you can customize it. Have the user submit a request for you to update it and have the section reflect their score on any site. Basically have them copy a link with their elo or something to show their elo / wins and losses.

(1) For DDO have them link their profile, incorporate their elo from "DDO" without using the edb8 formula. just have a section that says something like Alternative scores and list it as " :D DO" Elo. Then have that reflect there

(2) For any site, or even real life use the edb8 formula to calculate their elo. Basically any where that does not have a pre established elo system , incorporate the edb8 system but if the site has a elo system, just copy their elo score

Thoughts?
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 7:55 AM
Mikal: If I tell edeb8 that my username on DDO is "RoyLatham", how does edeb8 know that that's my REAL DDO username?
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Let's revive the forums!
Mikal
By Mikal | May 26 2015 8:08 AM
admin: Have that user message you on DDO or reveal enough info about said person to verify it to you on a persona level.

Like me for example, my account is closed but you can send my ip to max or just ask me questions where I have interacted with you to verify it as a fact. If its an active user on DDO where there account is still open , have them send you a message on DDO to say that is them. We could use the same method for different sites. Start there for now and I'll help you come up with a method for real life records
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 8:20 AM
Mikal: I have a general problem with verifying things personally every time, and I doubt max can be bothered verifying IPs for this purpose if that even was reliable. You've got me thinking though...

Suppose there was a DDO user account, that people could message their edeb8 usernames to...
Then that would use DDO's system to send emails to a secure email account on the edeb8 server...
That would then trigger a script to grab that user's DDO details or something and display it on the edeb8 profile.

It's a roundabout, tricky method that relies on the fact that I think DDO shows the message sent and the sender inside their notification email.
Would also need to account for potential spamming of the system given the ease of spamming on DDO, and other security stuff.

Just a concept at this stage... no idea if it could work...
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Let's revive the forums!
admin
By admin | May 26 2015 8:23 AM
admin: Or of course, have the edeb8 user settings page generate a secure unique secret value for every member to use on their edeb8 user verification page or such, to avoid false submissions.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Chuz Life
By Chuz Life | May 26 2015 8:58 AM
admin: If you've never had a debate experience, you don't know if you would enjoy it.

I don't forsee any problems with debates here. The actual experience of having a debate here was never of any concern for me.

What exactly is making you conclude, if not your experience, that edeb8 is turning into an elitist popularity contest?

Your ongoing conversation with Mikal (about elo scores on other sites being carried over to here) is a perfect example. Elo scores that can be so easily manipulated with multi accounts, noob sniping and voting alliances don't mean squat.

Chess games (wins and losses) are not subjective. Debates on the other hand ARE. And that is what intoduces the "appeal to popularity" aspect into the elo systems for this site and for DDO as well.
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The Supreme Court needs to explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under one law but not under any others.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 8:59 AM
If you actually agree to honor wins from other sites and real life debates, I will personally pledge to help you integrate it and i'll even help you draw online traffic for free. I got something I can use at work to work with it on
Not a fan of this proposal. This site isn't DDO, I think it is silly to subject to ourselves as being DDO's sister site.
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admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:02 AM
Chuz Life: That's on an attack on Elo scores though, that's an attack on debate pretty specifically. Under that notion ALL debate is basically an elitist popularity contest.

The things you mention are things edeb8 already controls for, so I'm glad about that. :)

The actual experience of having a debate here was never of any concern for me.
Honest question: then why are you here?
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
Blackflag
By Blackflag | May 26 2015 9:04 AM
Your ongoing conversation with Mikal (about elo scores on other sites being carried over to here) is a perfect example. Elo scores that can be so easily manipulated with multi accounts, noob sniping and voting alliances don't mean squat.

Chess games (wins and losses) are not subjective. Debates on the other hand ARE. And that is what intoduces the "appeal to popularity" aspect into the elo systems for this site and for DDO as well.

Okay, so I agree 100%. A lot of smart people have told @admin to get rid of ELO. The only people who want it are those who get some sort of ego-drive from having it. Yet it has negative impacts on those who don't care about the number, such as people judging biased due to the influence the number has on their thinking.
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admin
By admin | May 26 2015 9:04 AM
Blackflag: Another reason why the numbers are separate? The site isn't Facebook either but we let people log in with Facebook.
I'm the main developer for the site. If you have any problems, ideas, questions or concerns please send me a message.
Let's revive the forums!
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