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admin
By admin | Jul 17 2015 10:48 PM
Blackflag: See, if it wasn't for the Korean War, I don't think that situation would exist in Korea. Korea would be a unified communist state, and probably somewhat less hardline than it is now.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 18 2015 12:12 AM
admin: The extreme standard of living and social standards are far superior to what they would be in an agrarian Korea.

And what you are describing IS the Korean War, just if the Stalinist factions won.

I don't like how you always bullshit arguments with nirvana. One side isn't just going to let the other pillage through their lands unopposed, even if you do honestly believe it is for the best.

I stated that strategic diplomacy could force a peaceful resolution to the conflict, and you never made a clear refutation for why we shouldn't use strategic diplomacy, but you did make the claim that no one should get involved.
admin
By admin | Jul 18 2015 12:23 AM
Blackflag: I think it's made North Korea artificially worse off and South Korea artificially better off. I don't think you can possibly make a case that North Korea is better off today than they would be if the west hadn't put endless sanctions against them and driven them to forced isolation. Sure they're crazy, but this is what often happens to isolated nations.

A communist revolution was going to happen in Korea anyway, regardless of Stalinist involvement or backing. I don't consider a revolution as necessarily equivalent to a war. Non-violent revolutions have been far more powerful historically than violent ones.

I don't see the logic behind active resistance. One or the other side is going to die. It's a bad outcome either way. Passive resistance doesn't have the same zero-sum game.

The problem with strategic diplomacy is that it entangles a lot more actors than is necessary. It's like, pre-WWI thinking. Often it leads to big fights over extremely minor issues. You know, like WWI. By not getting involved, you actually minimize the chances of conflict.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 18 2015 1:12 AM
I think it's made North Korea artificially worse off and South Korea artificially better off.
Nah, I think it was a combination of capitalism and democracy, and a healthy amount of foreign development aid which would of never found its way to a Northern Korea.

A communist revolution was going to happen in Korea anyway, regardless of Stalinist involvement or backing. I don't consider a revolution as necessarily equivalent to a war. Non-violent revolutions have been far more powerful historically than violent ones.
Communists have tried to take power in the south funded by North Korea, and fail to gain any traction. A revolution would of been managable, a mass invasion from the North wasn't manageable at all.

I don't see the logic behind active resistance. One or the other side is going to die. It's a bad outcome either way. Passive resistance doesn't have the same zero-sum game.
I believe in your point in SOME cases, but disagree with the reasoning. Ppl resist so they aren't on the losing side, so it isn't necessarily a zero-sum game if one side wins.
The times I agree with you are the ones where one side has no reasonable chance at winning under normal circumstances, like how the Nazis didn't surrender until the Red Army stormed Berlin.

The problem with strategic diplomacy is that it entangles a lot more actors than is necessary. It's like, pre-WWI thinking. Often it leads to big fights over extremely minor issues. You know, like WWI. By not getting involved, you actually minimize the chances of conflict.
That probably wouldn't be the case here.

If the international community, primarily NATO nations, sided with Greece and pressured Turkey to withdraw troops to minimize the casualties in a future war, that would be a positive diplomatic result.

If the international community sides with Turkey, and tells Cyprus to form a federation with Northern Cyprus, then that would still be a positive diplomatic solution. One of the primary reasons neither side is backing down is because there isn't enough pressure from the international community to convince either one of them that it is in their best intrests to step off rather than have their relationships deteriorate with their allies.

As long as we are talking about world wars, isolationism is the primary reason WW2 started. Had there been resolutions to various disputes involving Japan, Italy, Romania, and Hungary, it is likely WW2 would of taken a very different toll. Had the allies reacted when the German military was incredibly weak in 1936, again, tens of millions wouldn't of shed their blood in Europe.

Like, if your complaint is that you don't want wars to start over minor conflicts, then it is best to resolve minor conflicts before a war starts over them. Doing nothing, like we've been doing, isn't resolving the conflict. Doing nothing hardly ever accomplishes anything in regards to geopolitics.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 18 2015 1:14 AM
Correct that, many of the Nazis never did actually surrender until well after the war
admin
By admin | Jul 18 2015 2:11 AM
Blackflag: Neither capitalism nor democracy have ever been proven to make a country richer. Trade, on the other hand, has. It makes logical sense too - when people cooperate, scarcity becomes less of a problem as access to resources increases. N Korea right now is desperately short on a vast array of important commodities. They get screwed into selling their workers to go to camps in Russia, and otherwise plead with China to keep them alive. Still this is hardly sufficient to maintain their population, and so widespread corruption becomes the norm. That can happen in any political system.

Communists have indeed tried to take power in the south. Reason why there wasn't any traction was because of the north. The south is legitimately afraid of the north, and that's because of a war that never needed to happen in the first place.

If one side wins, the other side loses with active resistance. Ultimately you want both sides to win. That means no killing each other. Hence why passive resistance tends to work better, because both sides win if no side dies. It's the old line about peace having victories no less renowned than war.

If the international community steps in, I can assure you one side will win in the Cyprus conflict - but it will come through fighting and bloodshed. It's like Palestine, the whole world tells them they're part of Israel, so what do they do? They fight back. Before that, Ireland fought back. The alternative, like in Barcelona, is that the international community couldn't care less and then nothing happens. Some people are slightly pissed for a time, but life carries on as ever.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 18 2015 10:08 AM
Communists have indeed tried to take power in the south. Reason why there wasn't any traction was because of the north. The south is legitimately afraid of the north, and that's because of a war that never needed to happen in the first place.
Your confusing me. The communists in the South were funded by the communists in the north. The reason communists didn't take power was because the South didn't want to become communists. I agree that the war never needed to happen, so I am critical of North Korea for starting it.

If one side wins, the other side loses with active resistance. Ultimately you want both sides to win.
Nirvana m8. If you don't resist then your side loses, but if you do resist, then the other side loses. I would much rather have the other guy lose.

Hence why passive resistance tends to work better, because both sides win if no side dies. It's the old line about peace having victories no less renowned than war.
I'm all for peace and nonviolence, if you can convince the other guy to be for it as well. You can't convince everybody though, so your proposal is nirvana.

If the international community steps in, I can assure you one side will win in the Cyprus conflict - but it will come through fighting and bloodshed.
What? The whole reason for getting diplomatically involved is to avoid a war. A war is going to happen if the international community doesn't get involved. On the other hand the international community has a huge amount of influence to instill a lasting peace.

The alternative, like in Barcelona, is that the international community couldn't care less and then nothing happens. Some people are slightly pissed for a time, but life carries on as ever.
Again, Catalonia, not Barcelona. The difference is that Catalonia is de-facto apart of Spain. Northern Cyprus is a de-facto state with its own defense. The other Cyprus is a de-facto sovereign state with its own professional military. War will happen if we do nothing. The ONLY thing decentiving war at this point is the Turkish military garrison, so for the most part Cyprus and Greece feel it is only a question of gaining enough military strength to overwhelm Northern Cyprus.
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 18 2015 11:03 PM
Neither capitalism nor democracy have ever been proven to make a country richer. Trade, on the other hand, has. It makes logical sense too - when people cooperate, scarcity becomes less of a problem as access to resources increases. N Korea right now is desperately short on a vast array of important commodities. They get screwed into selling their workers to go to camps in Russia, and otherwise plead with China to keep them alive
What commodities are you talking about?

They actually have it incredibly easy compared to most countries. At one point they had a blank check to any commodity available in Russia and China. In fact, even today Russia and China are still giving military equipment and industrial hardware to North Korea free of charge.

Up until 1979, North Korea had a larger economy than South Korea. That changed due to the Korean War, excessive military spending, and extremely bad communist policies that left North Koreans big industries completely neglected. While at the same time, South Korea's economy began to skyrocket three fold after a series of free market and capitalist reforms promoted under the conservative military government.

Nearly every attempt at implementing communist reforms has backfired, so I can fairly say that communism has been proven to negatively affect a nations weath. Capitalism on the other hand, radically changed economies for the better.

Your woefully uninformed on the Siberian work camps. North Korea has a shortage of Timber, and Russia has an excess of Timber. Russia is at full employment, so North Korea and Russia came to a deal that North Koreans could take timber from Siberia if they rented the land and sent their own people to collect it. The camps are in principle owned by the North Korean government, not by Russia.

China on the other hand, isn't actively intimidating North Korea, nor is North Korea pleading China for its survival. They actually have great relations, which is why China treads carefully to avoid hurting relations with North Korea. China send an endless supply of raw uranium into North Korea, and extradites anyone trying to escape over the border from North Korea, despite huge international scrutiny. Whenever a UN vote on North Korea occurs, China always sides with North Korea, no matter what the issue is.
admin
By admin | Jul 19 2015 4:43 AM
Blackflag: It's true that China has virtually open trade with North Korea, but North Korea simply has nothing China wants to buy. Hence why a few thousand corrupt North Korean officials with Chinese pals live very well, and the vast majority of North Korea, the millions of poor starving workers, live in poverty.

If China or Russia really cared about North Korea, they would have sent humanitarian aid when 200,000 people were made homeless by heavy flooding in 2012. Not one nation offered any help to North Korea.

It's true they give equipment free of charge, but it's not as though they don't expect a return on that equipment. China does the same in Africa, investing billions into local development so that African nations can earn money for Chinese businesses. It's not unlike the US model either, providing loans on the provision of exclusive US supply.

North Korea has no shortage of forests. If they were truly woefully short on timber, they would take that wood home with them to North Korea. They don't collect it, they mill it. It's cheap labor, and the Russian government has previously declared such work conditions effectively illegal. Nonetheless it's one of the few sources of income for the country. A country whose people hate the USA and love their government because their government tells them everything about how the embargo around North Korea is making them poor, and the people are starving (and basically survive thanks to a large drug trade that seems to be the only thing preventing a catastrophe at this point). Indeed North Korean media has recently been on something of a Pine-buzz, noting:

The species grows in the vast areas of Korea under 800 m above sea level—except the alpine regions in the northern part of the country. From olden times the Koreans used it for building materials, and its seeds, leaves, barks, resin, sap, sprouts and pollen to make foods and medicines.

In the meantime, China's government has officially warned people against North Korea . North Korea has in the past few years been doing rather a lot of pleading to keep that relationship alive. As for military aid, sure they send a few weapons from the 60s over, better than in their scrap-heaps. Meanwhile the North Korean government has routinely emphasized a desire to reunify Korea peacefully, and without a war, claiming the south is a puppet reigeme of the US looking for a war. This is their own media summary of their most recent statement:

It called on all Koreans in the south, the north and overseas to take it as the basic principle for solving the reunification issue to achieve independence against the U.S., and shape their destiny and way independently by their concerted efforts.

It appealed to them to wage a dynamic struggle under the banner of the joint declaration to check moves escalating confrontation against national reconciliation and reunification and bringing a war.


And here is a short excerpt from their most recent piece on Rodong:

No one can deny the fact that the puppet forces' anti-DPRK confrontation racket aimed to hurt the fellow countrymen and launch a war against the DPRK diametrically runs counter to the international sports games whose main idea is peace and friendship and it is no more than reckless act of seriously chilling their atmosphere.

Nevertheless, Choe vociferated about "terrorism" and "provocations" of someone. This clearly indicates the puppet regime is abusing inviolable sports games for the sinister politically-motivated purpose.

His outbursts would only escalate distrust and confrontation between the north and the south.
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admin
By admin | Jul 19 2015 4:48 AM
admin: And to put this into context, this is North Korea saying that the puppet south (of the USA) wishes to "launch a war" against them because they accused North Korea of planning a terrorist attack at some vague international sports game (to which North Korea's more general response was "WTF we've never done anything remotely like that", which honestly is sorta true). It goes to show how North Korea is going to be able to shift the blame on to you guys, while claiming the moral high ground for their people themselves, so long as you keep getting involved in the affairs of Korea.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 19 2015 6:44 AM
Damn, have to rewrite my entire reply
Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 19 2015 7:01 AM
It's true that China has virtually open trade with North Korea, but North Korea simply has nothing China wants to buy. Hence why a few thousand corrupt North Korean officials with Chinese pals live very well, and the vast majority of North Korea, the millions of poor starving workers, live in poverty.
I thought you said that China has nothing North Korea wants, so why do these partnerships exist in the first place? My guess is that North Korea has something China wants, or they wouldn't be investing in them like crazy as an ally.

If China or Russia really cared about North Korea, they would have sent humanitarian aid when 200,000 people were made homeless by heavy flooding in 2012. Not one nation offered any help to North Korea.
They did though. South Korea and the US also sent aid, and no nation on earth restricted their humanitarian organizations from sending aid. Surprising considering North Korea has a reputation of stealing humanitarian aid to spend on their military.

North Korea has no shortage of forests.
Having forests doesn't necessarily imply available timber, and North Korea lacks both forests and timber.

If they were truly woefully short on timber, they would take that wood home with them to North Korea.
But they do. I've watched countless documentaries on North Korea that have entered this subject, some exclusively on the Siberian work camps. There has been countless footage and testimonies from escaped workers, and they all say that the timber gets shipped back.

They don't collect it, they mill it.
That's how you make timber, right?

A country whose people hate the USA and love their government because their government tells them everything about how the embargo around North Korea is making them poor, and the people are starving
They also call us devils, and the funny part is that they say the same thing about your country. They have death chants for all the nations who participated in the Korean War. No question North Koreans are brainwashed. Ever see the footage of their daily prayer rituals in front of the mandatory photos of the Kim family in every home?

In the meantime, China's government has officially warned people against North Korea
Allies hit rough spots all the time. If China wasn't an ally of North Korea, they wouldn't keep investing more than they recieve, nor would they continue to extradite North Korean fugitives.

North Korea has in the past few years been doing rather a lot of pleading to keep that relationship alive.
Examples? If anything, it is less like pleading and more like active diplomacy.

Meanwhile the North Korean government has routinely emphasized a desire to reunify Korea peacefully, and without a war, claiming the south is a puppet reigeme of the US looking for a war.

Not a convincing argument, considering North Korea subjects its citizens to growing militarization and constantly transfers them over to military projects along the DMZ. Hell, have you heard the kinds of war propaganda they instill at their schools? There isn't even a war to be propagating.

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 19 2015 8:33 AM
It goes to show how North Korea is going to be able to shift the blame on to you guys, while claiming the moral high ground for their people themselves, so long as you keep getting involved in the affairs of Korea.
You're forgetting something though. Comparing North Korea to Cyprus is non-sequitor.

The people involved in the Cyprus conflict aren't woefully stubborn and ignorant, are economically reliant on the international community, and have good relations with their neighbors that they would like to maintain. War is likely because neither side is recieving the slightest bit of pressure to back down their military build ups and to look for a peaceful solution.

Getting involved might result in initial media wars, but thankfully we have a sane democratic block whose citizens are not subjected to the ire of state run and partisan media. Domestic approval means a lot these days, so a country that responds aggresively towards diplomacy isn't going to maintain the support of the ppl for long, especially since such actions would have repercussions.

admin
By admin | Jul 19 2015 12:23 PM
Blackflag: The partnership exists in the first place for 2 reasons:
1. China's foreign policy generally is to try to convince other nearby nations that they are not a threat (while simultaneously sometimes having claims against their land haha). To this end China have been huge promoters of open trade around their region of the world, and North Korea would much rather Chinese imperialism than US imperialism.
2. Historical reasons broadly. As two "communist" powers, China and North Korea have a lot of history together.

Can you give me a source on this aid you said was provided after the 2012 floods? The WFP pledged aid but didn't deliver it, and that's about it.

46% of North Korea is forest, and the VAST majority of that is pine. If you think that's a shortage of timber, consider Siberia, which is mostly swamp and tundra.

Your documentaries would be interesting to compare to what I've seen. Have you seen the vice one? Anyway, the fact is though, that North Korea imports basically zero wood ( https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/prk/ ). As a matter of fact, wood is one of the few things China buys from North Korea ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/imports-to-north-korea - note also how China is trading less and less with North Korea recently).

I don't consider North Koreans brainwashed anymore than Americans who pledge allegiance to their flag.

This is a pretty clear rough spot between North Korea and all its allies. Matter of fact I'd say North Korea's foreign relations have never been rougher.

How would you distinguish "active diplomacy" from pleading?

I'd say it is a convincing argument in the same way that Hitler pleaded for peaceful occupation before WW2 started. I still don't think Hitler expected a war to actually start. I did a debate on that on here before - it was a pity my opponent forfeited.
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Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 19 2015 1:22 PM

Can you give me a source on this aid you said was provided after the 2012 floods? The WFP pledged aid but didn't deliver it, and that's about it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-19124495
WFP sends food aid

There was also another link I had found earlier that said Russia, China, South Korea, and the US had sent aid along with Japan. Where's your source that they didn't provide aid though?

I don't consider North Koreans brainwashed anymore than Americans who pledge allegiance to their flag.
Ha, then you are more naive than I though. Get a reality check, North Korea is the most backwards brainwashed society in existence. I've watched dozens of inside Korea documentaries because I was at one point immensely interested in how fanatical and insane the actual citizens of North Korea are.

Your documentaries would be interesting to compare to what I've seen. Have you seen the vice one?
I've seen three Vice documentaries on North Korea. In total, I've seen probably about 16 or so documentaries on North Korea discussing a variety of subjects.

46% of North Korea is forest, and the VAST majority of that is pine.
First of all source this information. Second, source an article verifying that the workcamps are slave labor for Russia. Third, counter all the various sources that are saying North Korea gets timber from the work camps in Russia. While you are at it, get someone to testify against all the people who have worked in the camps and have claimed themselves what they were doing.

note also how China is trading less and less with North Korea recently
Lol, could of you provided a chart that wasn't 5 months long? There are numerous factors to this too. First of all, China had several crashes in its economy last year and this year. Second of all, nations trade on purchase orders. Certain months see more trade than others. I observe trading economics almost daily, and you will see the same patterns in almost every other chart. Third, most of China's aid is developmental. North Korea is attempting to be self sufficient.

This is a pretty clear rough spot between North Korea and all its allies. Matter of fact I'd say North Korea's foreign relations have never been rougher.
I wont deny this. They are still allies though, and as long as they feel North Korea is in there sphere of influence, they will continue being allies.

How would you distinguish "active diplomacy" from pleading?
Love the reversal. You made the claim that North Korea was pleading without any specific examples, so you go first.

I'd say it is a convincing argument in the same way that Hitler pleaded for peaceful occupation before WW2 started. I still don't think Hitler expected a war to actually start.
It wouldn't matter anyway, it is a good thing a war did start.

Did you actually read the plans Hitler and his council had comprised for all the nations they conquered. He had a different final solution for every country he conquered. For Bohemia, he had planned to integrate and cross breed bohemians until they became indistinguishable from Germans, at which point they would proceed to exterminate all those who failed to successfully convert to the Aryan race.

The plans for Poland and Russia were especially diabolical. He had erased all references to Slav races in occupied territories. He had planned to colonize the General Gouvernment and Russian military districts with Germans until the Slavs became a minority, in which case Hitler would proceed to launch a civil and military genocide on over 100 million non-superior races. Now that's jacked up.

Blackflag
By Blackflag | Jul 19 2015 1:23 PM
Blackflag: *100 million ethnically insuperior people
admin
By admin | Jul 19 2015 5:54 PM
Blackflag: You just linked an article about the non-government WFP pledging food aid. Not confirmation it was ever delivered.
AFAIK the only foreign officially "registered" NGO in North Korea is the Red Cross, though an extremely large number of (mostly religious, for some stupid reason) others do operate secretly. I believe the WFP recently stopped operating in N Korea altogether generally, but only to extremely poor children under 4 and their mothers, as they couldn't find any more donors, though at the time the floods hit a number of countries like Ukraine, Germany, Russia, China etc were still donating food, just didn't actually pledge anything for the floods to contribute to the programme. Couldn't find the source when I looked just now but here's them talking about it: http://www.wsj.com/articles/united-nations-food-aid-program-for-north-korea-lacks-donors-1409047712 . The point is, no country helped out. I know they didn't deliver all that food they promised in 2012 though, particularly since the US suspended all aid to north korea that year after that missile test, and the whole US block followed suit. Also, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/north-korea-food-aid_n_5212148.html . The German arm was actually expelled by the North Koreans themselves earlier this year. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/04/02/uk-northkorea-germany-ngo-idUKKBN0MT12120150402

I don't really see them as the most brainwashed... maybe they are, but a lot of nations are brainwashed and it's not a competition. Heck, people used to say China were the most brainwashed under Mao, or Russia under Stalin. The common people in those societies were very real. They were simply fed one side of the story, and Americans are fed the other side of the story (and the people like me are mostly fed the US account but are very critical of it).

46% being forested: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/north-korea/forest-area-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html
The graph also shows how North Korea are quite happy using their own forest resources, since they have a ton.

Effective slave labor in Siberia for (semi) Russian businesses: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8221164.stm
Or this (I like the term "gulag" they use haha :( http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/in-siberias-last-gulag-conditions-in-north-koreas-russian-logging-camps-originally-built-for-political-prisoners-are-reminiscent-of-the-old-soviet-gulag-but-north-koreans-fight-to-be-sent-to-them-because-from-there-they-can-defect-1425245.html

I have countered all the various sources saying that N Korea gets timber from Russia. You've provided zero. I've provided one showing N Korea's timber imports are basically none, and that N Korea exports a bunch of timber instead.

I could have provided a chart that went beyond 5 months, but the long-term trend is no better. In fact since the 2013 embargo from the US, N Korea has seen a decline in their exports every single year.

Examples of what I consider pleading: every single time they beg for food. Heck, last year they even begged Mongolia for food, and sent an ambassador to India of all places. We haven't seen a weapons test from N Korea in a while, there's reports that Kim is planning to move the military towards more conventional weapons, and all this comes shortly after China denounced the weapons tests. N Korea did not respond in the same way when the US denounced them a few years earlier, did they? I seem to remember a few propaganda videos of N Korean children dreaming of blowing up America.

As for WW2 being good, don't assume the same aims (removing NAZIs from power) could not have been achieved without war.
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