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Is Jesus the God of the Bible?

(PRO)
2 points
(CON)
WINNER!
16 points
YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought (PRO)
First let me say Who Jesus is. Jesus is the Man that was tortured to death for saying and doing things only God should do. I will include plenty of links to support my claims, including one to a video. I hope my opponant enjoys this debate.
Proof that Jesus is God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLlWmB-ZqBE&t=6s and https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html
Please consider my evidence when judging. John 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 20:28And Thomas answered and said unto him, MyLordand my God.
Colossians 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Philippians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvEv_lgafLk









Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-01 21:58:47
| Speak Round
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby (CON)
Firstly, my opponent hasn't done a great job in their definition of Jesus. The biblical presentation of Jesus is one of a religious teacher and leader; indeed, he presents himself as a prophet of God and one whose leadership must be followed. However, to say that Jesus was tortured for saying and doing things only God could do is oversimplified and certainly not indicative of reality. Jesus was killed because the Jewish people - at least as presented in the biblical account - believed that Jesus was claiming to actually be God.

My goal here isn't to prove what Jesus did or didn't say, though it will be mentioned. Instead, I have an argument structured as follows.

1) You can't prove Jesus is God until you prove that gods are possible in the first place.
2) You have to prove a historical Jesus.
3) Jesus is not God, and the Bible (and those who read it) say so.

So, let's get started, shall we?

1) Jesus is secondary for the first argument. If you want to prove that Jesus is the God of anything at all, you have to prove that a God is possible. This means we need a definition. Oxford English Dictionary defines God (big G) as "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." This is a fine definition in my opinion, as it refers specifically to a creator God who can intercede and is the source of morality. I'll hold off on going into this further, since my opponent may have a different definition of God, and I'd like us to be using the same word with the same meaning before we discuss this further.
2) The historicity of Jesus is not as factually well-founded as some Christians like to insist. As my opponent seems to have found it appropriate to outsource their argument to YouTube, I feel relatively comfortable pointing out a few notable points at this page. Essentially, the arguments presented boil down to the idea that the evidence we have for a historical Jesus is questionable at best, and that there is very little we actually know about him from external sources contemporary with the supposed authors of the gospels.
3) Finally, even if we WERE to agree that Jesus existed and that Gods were possible, we still have to prove that Jesus is God. In John 10:31-42, Jesus presents himself as a Son of God, and makes clear that all the Jews who want to stone him to death are also Sons of God. This isn't difficult to understand. Jesus prays to God in Luke 22:39 for the Lord to take his cup from him, generally accepted as him asking God to find another way to complete the sacrifice than by killing him. If Jesus is indeed of one mind with God, then why did he pray to himself? And furthermore, if he IS God and wanted God to intercede, why didn't he intercede on his own behalf? There is no way in which this makes sense.

Additionally, Jews of the world are generally in agreement that Jesus was NOT the messiah, despite attempts by Christian apologists to match up Old Testament verses with New Testament ones. Even if they WERE connected, that would prove very little as far as using the Bible as a worthwhile source, as the authors of the gospels would also have had access to the old testament books - meaning they could have written anything they wanted if they thought it would convince people that prophecies were being fulfilled.

I'll end by asking my opponent to clarify their definition of God. If the definition has not been clarified, I will use the definition of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and morally perfect being as the definition going forward.

Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-03 02:28:06
| Speak Round
YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought (PRO)
A god or goddess is a supernatural deity with creative powers. I am basing my argument on the presupposition that the YHWH God of the Bible exists, and thought my opponent was too. Jesus is the Man crucified (John 19) and risen from the dead. Another presupposition is that the God of the Bible and His Son Jesus exist at least for this debate. I would be happy to debate my opponent on this in another debate. I would like to ask my opponant to review the evidence (please), and then come back with a fresh perpective.
Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-04 02:12:58
| Speak Round
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby (CON)
My opponent now thinks that we get to assume Jesus historical existence AND that we get to assume he is the Son of God. Presupposing these things is not a given and you shouldn't have assumed that we were on the same page when you made your opening statement. If you are indeed willing to so drastically slant the argument by presupposing the existence of God, Jesus as a historical figure, AND Jesus as God's only begotten son, then you've practically dismissed the entire debate out of hand and may as well presuppose Jesus' divinity as well. You don't get to ignore the question of Jesus' existence for the sake of convenience. The only way in which you could even begin to argue this debate while ignoring this crucial piece of information would be to take the route of arguing from a mythical perspective, in the same way that Zeus is the ruler of the Greek pantheon. While we recognize that it isn't real, we can also understand it within the context of the story. However, you've already committed to arguing this from a factual perspective, so now you must approach both the questions of the existence of Gods and the question of the historicity of Jesus.

As I've pointed out, there are biblical verses that allude to Jesus being separate from God and not sharing a mind with such a being. You can't have it both ways; if Jesus was God and had God's experience, knowledge, and power, then he was already aware of the plan involving his sacrifice, and wouldn't have needed to pray or have any sort of doubt in Gethsemane. If he doesn't have God's experience, knowledge, and power, then in what way could we consider Jesus a deity of any kind, even within the context of the bible. Again, Jesus describes himself as a son of God and alludes to the idea that we ALL are God's children.

This is only the beginning. Jesus stands in direct contradiction to many of God's commandments in the earlier texts. A notable example is the contradiction between Exodus 20:13 where we get the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," and Luke 19:27, where Jesus says "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Is this an example of a being of one mind with God? Many will say that we are under a "new covenant" with Jesus. However, these same people will argue that the ten commandments still apply. If true, then why is Jesus in direct contradiction with God, who he supposedly shares a mind with?

With respect to my opponent, the debate is here. If you have a specific argument to bring from another source (like a YouTube video), kindly quote it here and leave a timestamp for the beginning of said argument. Water analogies are not convincing; you'll need to use both scriptural evidence and sources external to the bible. I look forward to your next statement.

Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-04 18:49:29
| Speak Round


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Previous Judgments

2018-06-08 01:48:38
ImbsterJudge: Imbster
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
Reasoning:
Both participants have organized their debate in someway and that is a good mark. Both mainly use the Bible but one utilized it to appeal well. Both have stated some verses but GuitarKirby has stated and strengthened more verses throughout his argument. Although both used the final round to drift away from the absolute topic a little and emphasize presupposing and also definitions plus faith matters, GuitarKirby overall had a better formulated path made with his arguments.
2 users rated this judgement as constructive
0 comments on this judgement
2018-06-20 04:34:17
nzlockieJudge: nzlockie    TOP JUDGE
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
Reasoning:
The Burden of Proof for this debate was pretty heavily weighted on PRO's side. Unfortunately PRO didn't really address this burden at all, instead choosing to outsource the arguments to a video, with no in-round summation of whatever evidence was presented there.
That's not the way debate works, you really only get scored on arguments YOU make in round. With that in mind, PRO didn't really make ANY arguments at all, and barely defined the resolution - something CON was quick to take advantage of.
By contrast, CON gave a three-pronged strategy to dismantling the resolution. The three prongs didn't really get a chance to be fleshed out, but there was a clear direction, and some assertions were made. These assertions were not challenged or negated, which means that, while they don't score high, they DO score.
Pretty clear win to CON.
.

Feedback:
PRO: You hurt yourself here in several places. I'll point them out and you should try to avoid these things in the future:
1. You did a decent job defining Jesus. You needed to spell out the rest of the resolution a little more. ESPECIALLY when the resolution is framed as a question, which is generally regarded as a no-no in debate.
CON was quite correct when they took you to task for assuming that people would assume that God existed and the Bible was true. It's a fairly obvious attack. For future reference, you can filter this attack out in the Rules for the debate, where you could have set these assumptions out so that any takers could not challenge it. This has been done several times on this site.

2. You CAN'T link to something else to make your case for you. This is a debate site. You're supposed to debate. Not link to relevant articles or videos.
If you ARE going to do this, then at least give me a summary of the points made. In your own words.
I want to hear YOUR thoughts, not someone else's.
Same goes with a list of quoted verses. You need to explain the relevance of what they say as it pertains to the resolution. Don't assume I'm going to read cited sources - most judges don't. It's not required.

3. Pay attention to how many rounds you have. This debate only had two rounds. Since you're not supposed to introduce new arguments in the last round, you really only had ONE round to make your case.
When you DID make your second round, there was no summation of your case, no rebuttal, no new constructive.

CON: I mean the thing about a two round debate, is that, as CON, you kind of knew you had this in the bag by the time your first round came up. I can see why you might have dialled this in a little.
The only feedback I'd give you is that it looked a little like you didn't realise it was a two round debate either.

I liked the way you attacked the presupposition by PRO regarding the existence of God. It was an obvious attack, and deserved to be made. The only thing I'd say though is to be careful when doing this kind of attack. You've done it exactly the right way. You need to stop short of actually DEMANDING that PRO prove something they don't have space or rounds to prove, because it comes off a bit dicky, but you should aim to try and trick them into ASSUMING that burden and attempting it anyway.

One of the great tricks in formal debate is to trick your opponent into using up their time , energy and character limit in arguing things that are non-scoring. If you can do that without making it look like you were claiming that'd lose if they didn't do that, then you win.
1 user rated this judgement as constructive
0 comments on this judgement
2018-06-23 12:31:46
Penrose stairsJudge: Penrose stairs
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
2018-06-24 20:01:41
dsjpk5Judge: dsjpk5
Win awarded to: YeshuaBought
2018-06-27 04:53:12
rachel_jaideJudge: rachel_jaide
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
Reasoning:
It's obvious that Jesus either existed but wasn't who he said he was, or just didn't exist at all.
1 user rated this judgement as a vote bomb
1 comment on this judgement
GuitarKirbyGuitarKirby
Much as I appreciate extra points, please try to be objective and share your reasoning based on the debate, not preconceived notions. If you do indeed want to comment your opinion, please keep it to the comment section of each debate.
Posted 2018-06-27 05:03:46
2018-07-17 23:37:59
miavvJudge: miavv
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
2018-07-19 09:57:34
Marioiscalm111Judge: Marioiscalm111
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
Reasoning:
I am with GuitarKibry for a lot of reasons aside from my personal believes . I believe jesus is neither god or his son. Jesus is just a prophet like others and to all who say jesus is god. He’s not bc gods don’t die and as your opponent claim he got ‘tortured until he died’ which doesn’t make sense bc gods are immortals and he died ws claimed.
0 comments on this judgement
2018-07-31 16:20:49
FrostfireJudge: Frostfire
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
2018-08-06 23:57:14
pxress. Judge: pxress.
Win awarded to: YeshuaBought
2018-08-08 01:06:50
Georgia22Judge: Georgia22
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby
2018-08-23 23:39:53
BenboldFureyJudge: BenboldFurey
Win awarded to: GuitarKirby

Rules of the debate

  • Text debate
  • Individual debate
  • 2 rounds
  • No length restrictions
  • No reply speeches
  • No cross-examination
  • Permissive Judging Standard (notes)
  • Forfeiting rounds means forfeiting the debate
  • Images allowed
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  • Rated debate
  • Time to post: 1 month
  • Time to vote: 3 months
  • Time to prepare: None
As pro, I assume the burden of proof, etc. I will be using links as proof of my clains, and I look forward to debating about the love of my life.