YeshuaBought (PRO)First let me say Who Jesus is. Jesus is the Man that was tortured to death for saying and doing things only God should do. I will include plenty of links to support my claims, including one to a video. I hope my opponant enjoys this debate.
Proof that Jesus is God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLlWmB-ZqBE&t=6s and https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html
Please consider my evidence when judging. John 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 20:28And Thomas answered and said unto him, MyLordand my God.
Colossians 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Philippians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvEv_lgafLk
Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-01 09:58:47
| Speak Round
GuitarKirby (CON)Firstly, my opponent hasn't done a great job in their definition of Jesus. The biblical presentation of Jesus is one of a religious teacher and leader; indeed, he presents himself as a prophet of God and one whose leadership must be followed. However, to say that Jesus was tortured for saying and doing things only God could do is oversimplified and certainly not indicative of reality. Jesus was killed because the Jewish people - at least as presented in the biblical account - believed that Jesus was claiming to actually be God.
My goal here isn't to prove what Jesus did or didn't say, though it will be mentioned. Instead, I have an argument structured as follows.
1) You can't prove Jesus is God until you prove that gods are possible in the first place.
2) You have to prove a historical Jesus.
3) Jesus is not God, and the Bible (and those who read it) say so.
So, let's get started, shall we?
1) Jesus is secondary for the first argument. If you want to prove that Jesus is the God of anything at all, you have to prove that a God is possible. This means we need a definition. Oxford English Dictionary defines God (big G) as "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." This is a fine definition in my opinion, as it refers specifically to a creator God who can intercede and is the source of morality. I'll hold off on going into this further, since my opponent may have a different definition of God, and I'd like us to be using the same word with the same meaning before we discuss this further.
2) The historicity of Jesus is not as factually well-founded as some Christians like to insist. As my opponent seems to have found it appropriate to outsource their argument to YouTube, I feel relatively comfortable pointing out a few notable points at this page. Essentially, the arguments presented boil down to the idea that the evidence we have for a historical Jesus is questionable at best, and that there is very little we actually know about him from external sources contemporary with the supposed authors of the gospels.
3) Finally, even if we WERE to agree that Jesus existed and that Gods were possible, we still have to prove that Jesus is God. In John 10:31-42, Jesus presents himself as a Son of God, and makes clear that all the Jews who want to stone him to death are also Sons of God. This isn't difficult to understand. Jesus prays to God in Luke 22:39 for the Lord to take his cup from him, generally accepted as him asking God to find another way to complete the sacrifice than by killing him. If Jesus is indeed of one mind with God, then why did he pray to himself? And furthermore, if he IS God and wanted God to intercede, why didn't he intercede on his own behalf? There is no way in which this makes sense.
Additionally, Jews of the world are generally in agreement that Jesus was NOT the messiah, despite attempts by Christian apologists to match up Old Testament verses with New Testament ones. Even if they WERE connected, that would prove very little as far as using the Bible as a worthwhile source, as the authors of the gospels would also have had access to the old testament books - meaning they could have written anything they wanted if they thought it would convince people that prophecies were being fulfilled.
Additionally, Jews of the world are generally in agreement that Jesus was NOT the messiah, despite attempts by Christian apologists to match up Old Testament verses with New Testament ones. Even if they WERE connected, that would prove very little as far as using the Bible as a worthwhile source, as the authors of the gospels would also have had access to the old testament books - meaning they could have written anything they wanted if they thought it would convince people that prophecies were being fulfilled.
I'll end by asking my opponent to clarify their definition of God. If the definition has not been clarified, I will use the definition of an all-powerful, all-knowing, and morally perfect being as the definition going forward.
Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-02 14:28:06
| Speak RoundYeshuaBought (PRO)A god or goddess is a supernatural deity with creative powers. I am basing my argument on the presupposition that the YHWH God of the Bible exists, and thought my opponent was too. Jesus is the Man crucified (John 19) and risen from the dead. Another presupposition is that the God of the Bible and His Son Jesus exist at least for this debate. I would be happy to debate my opponent on this in another debate. I would like to ask my opponant to review the evidence (please), and then come back with a fresh perpective.
Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-03 14:12:58
| Speak RoundGuitarKirby (CON)My opponent now thinks that we get to assume Jesus historical existence AND that we get to assume he is the Son of God. Presupposing these things is not a given and you shouldn't have assumed that we were on the same page when you made your opening statement. If you are indeed willing to so drastically slant the argument by presupposing the existence of God, Jesus as a historical figure, AND Jesus as God's only begotten son, then you've practically dismissed the entire debate out of hand and may as well presuppose Jesus' divinity as well. You don't get to ignore the question of Jesus' existence for the sake of convenience. The only way in which you could even begin to argue this debate while ignoring this crucial piece of information would be to take the route of arguing from a mythical perspective, in the same way that Zeus is the ruler of the Greek pantheon. While we recognize that it isn't real, we can also understand it within the context of the story. However, you've already committed to arguing this from a factual perspective, so now you must approach both the questions of the existence of Gods and the question of the historicity of Jesus.
As I've pointed out, there are biblical verses that allude to Jesus being separate from God and not sharing a mind with such a being. You can't have it both ways; if Jesus was God and had God's experience, knowledge, and power, then he was already aware of the plan involving his sacrifice, and wouldn't have needed to pray or have any sort of doubt in Gethsemane. If he doesn't have God's experience, knowledge, and power, then in what way could we consider Jesus a deity of any kind, even within the context of the bible. Again, Jesus describes himself as a son of God and alludes to the idea that we ALL are God's children.
This is only the beginning. Jesus stands in direct contradiction to many of God's commandments in the earlier texts. A notable example is the contradiction between Exodus 20:13 where we get the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," and Luke 19:27, where Jesus says "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Is this an example of a being of one mind with God? Many will say that we are under a "new covenant" with Jesus. However, these same people will argue that the ten commandments still apply. If true, then why is Jesus in direct contradiction with God, who he supposedly shares a mind with?
With respect to my opponent, the debate is here. If you have a specific argument to bring from another source (like a YouTube video), kindly quote it here and leave a timestamp for the beginning of said argument. Water analogies are not convincing; you'll need to use both scriptural evidence and sources external to the bible. I look forward to your next statement.
Return To Top | Posted:
2018-06-04 06:49:29
| Speak Round
Judge: Imbster
Judge: nzlockie
Judge: Penrose stairs
Judge: dsjpk5
Judge: miavv
Much as I appreciate extra points, please try to be objective and share your reasoning based on the debate, not preconceived notions. If you do indeed want to comment your opinion, please keep it to the comment section of each debate.Posted 2018-06-26 17:03:46